PSA "Latest & Greatest"
05-04-2017, 08:25 AM
#471
On RSV
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Gear Puller
Posts: 107
It is a negative learning environment. The pilot will NEVER be expected to conduct PM or CA flow duties from the left side of the airplane for at least 1.5-2 years. Having him do all those duties from the left seat is the definition of negative learning. And if you are failing students from the the left seat for PM duties (not what the guy said, he said Captain flows), then perhaps your instructors aren't doing a good enough job evaluating whether the students are ready for the check ride. PM duties are fairly straight forward. Perhaps the expectations aren't being set early enough in training.
Your argument about flying solo is a joke at best. If you were training someone to do that, you might as well have him take the checkride solo. A 121 cockpit is a team environment. Knowing how to operate the aircraft safely is one thing. Setting the students up for failure is another one all together. At both airlines I've worked at, it is standard practice to have the Captain be a seat-fill or at least be an upgrading CA. The duties and expectations of a Captain and a first officer are completely different, especially if both people came from a non-airline environment.
Your argument about flying solo is a joke at best. If you were training someone to do that, you might as well have him take the checkride solo. A 121 cockpit is a team environment. Knowing how to operate the aircraft safely is one thing. Setting the students up for failure is another one all together. At both airlines I've worked at, it is standard practice to have the Captain be a seat-fill or at least be an upgrading CA. The duties and expectations of a Captain and a first officer are completely different, especially if both people came from a non-airline environment.
And to comment on flying solo, have you seen the news? It doesn't happen often but it does.
05-04-2017, 08:29 AM
#472
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 755
It is a negative learning environment. The pilot will NEVER be expected to conduct PM or CA flow duties from the left side of the airplane for at least 1.5-2 years. Having him do all those duties from the left seat is the definition of negative learning. And if you are failing students from the the left seat for PM duties (not what the guy said, he said Captain flows), then perhaps your instructors aren't doing a good enough job evaluating whether the students are ready for the check ride. PM duties are fairly straight forward. Perhaps the expectations aren't being set early enough in training.
Your argument about flying solo is a joke at best. If you were training someone to do that, you might as well have him take the checkride solo. A 121 cockpit is a team environment. Knowing how to operate the aircraft safely is one thing. Setting the students up for failure is another one all together. At both airlines I've worked at, it is standard practice to have the Captain be a seat-fill or at least be an upgrading CA. The duties and expectations of a Captain and a first officer are completely different, especially if both people came from a non-airline environment.
Your argument about flying solo is a joke at best. If you were training someone to do that, you might as well have him take the checkride solo. A 121 cockpit is a team environment. Knowing how to operate the aircraft safely is one thing. Setting the students up for failure is another one all together. At both airlines I've worked at, it is standard practice to have the Captain be a seat-fill or at least be an upgrading CA. The duties and expectations of a Captain and a first officer are completely different, especially if both people came from a non-airline environment.
05-04-2017, 08:41 AM
#473
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Left
Posts: 1,809
It is a negative learning environment. The pilot will NEVER be expected to conduct PM or CA flow duties from the left side of the airplane for at least 1.5-2 years. Having him do all those duties from the left seat is the definition of negative learning. And if you are failing students from the the left seat for PM duties (not what the guy said, he said Captain flows), then perhaps your instructors aren't doing a good enough job evaluating whether the students are ready for the check ride. PM duties are fairly straight forward. Perhaps the expectations aren't being set early enough in training.
Your argument about flying solo is a joke at best. If you were training someone to do that, you might as well have him take the checkride solo. A 121 cockpit is a team environment. Knowing how to operate the aircraft safely is one thing. Setting the students up for failure is another one all together. At both airlines I've worked at, it is standard practice to have the Captain be a seat-fill or at least be an upgrading CA. The duties and expectations of a Captain and a first officer are completely different, especially if both people came from a non-airline environment.
Your argument about flying solo is a joke at best. If you were training someone to do that, you might as well have him take the checkride solo. A 121 cockpit is a team environment. Knowing how to operate the aircraft safely is one thing. Setting the students up for failure is another one all together. At both airlines I've worked at, it is standard practice to have the Captain be a seat-fill or at least be an upgrading CA. The duties and expectations of a Captain and a first officer are completely different, especially if both people came from a non-airline environment.
It's been mentioned(more than once, including from instructors) that students do not fail rides based on captain duties, flows, or decision making yet you still come here and spout your nonsense. your buddy did not fail his ride due to captain flows. Pilots are allowed 2 failure items on an initial PC. If he got a fail on flows(he didn't) what else did he fail?
Everyone with even a sliver of experience in aviation knows that when you talk to someone who failed a ride it's never their fault. They somehow got screwed by the system.
Lastly, I call BS on the fact that "an upgrading captain" fills a seat during an FO check ride, gimme a break.
05-04-2017, 08:42 AM
#474
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,606
Then the jokes on me! Truly not worth getting into a ****ing match over. Fact is the guys that fail from the left purely fail for not knowing PM duties, not because of captain duties. That's it! you are not expected to fly from the left seat or make captain decisions. It's both of your responsibility to realize that if the center line lights are not on and the RVR is 5/5/5 and you blast off its on both of you! If you realize your over fueled by 500lbs and the limitation is 300 and you push off the gate, its on both of you! Strictly knowledge here not flying. You as an FO need to have that knowledge just as much as the captain your flying with.
And to comment on flying solo, have you seen the news? It doesn't happen often but it does.
And to comment on flying solo, have you seen the news? It doesn't happen often but it does.
At my regional, I had an FO/FO pairing. The instructor we had did a good job playing Captain from the panel and setting us up for success even though my partner was a train wreck with Captain flows. He never cut corners. Now, from other friends, after doing a sim or two of taxi out and do everything, most sims started at the end of the runway and off we go. There are just so many boxes that need to be checked that those 2-4 hours are better spent cramming things in the air. When I finally had a qualified Captain in the left seat during my PC (and subsequent LOE) to do his duties and briefs exactly as they were intended, it was really eye-opening and finally made sense. I think there is a benefit to be had having a confident CA in the left seat during jeopardy events. It's calming to know that my seat fill isn't going to be holding onto the rudder with me, because, let's be honest, no matter how good the training program, MOST FOs are doing just that until the end of OE.
05-04-2017, 08:49 AM
#475
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: Downward Dog
Posts: 1,875
B) what can't you over fill by 300 pounds? Release fuel?
05-04-2017, 08:52 AM
#476
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 126
I don't mean to get into anyone's personal business, but would someone be willing to post or PM a realistic dollar amount of first year pay based off what your average monthly hours credit?
I have an interview invite and I am truly interested, I honestly just don't know if I'd be able to pay the bills if I do.
Thanks.
AP
I have an interview invite and I am truly interested, I honestly just don't know if I'd be able to pay the bills if I do.
Thanks.
AP
05-04-2017, 08:53 AM
#477
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 755
The fuel thing is a basic limitation (or a company policy, depending on which fuel number you are looking at).
05-04-2017, 09:23 AM
#479
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 323
It is a negative learning environment. The pilot will NEVER be expected to conduct PM or CA flow duties from the left side of the airplane for at least 1.5-2 years. Having him do all those duties from the left seat is the definition of negative learning. And if you are failing students from the the left seat for PM duties (not what the guy said, he said Captain flows), then perhaps your instructors aren't doing a good enough job evaluating whether the students are ready for the check ride. PM duties are fairly straight forward. Perhaps the expectations aren't being set early enough in training.
Your argument about flying solo is a joke at best. If you were training someone to do that, you might as well have him take the checkride solo. A 121 cockpit is a team environment. Knowing how to operate the aircraft safely is one thing. Setting the students up for failure is another one all together. At both airlines I've worked at, it is standard practice to have the Captain be a seat-fill or at least be an upgrading CA. The duties and expectations of a Captain and a first officer are completely different, especially if both people came from a non-airline environment.
Your argument about flying solo is a joke at best. If you were training someone to do that, you might as well have him take the checkride solo. A 121 cockpit is a team environment. Knowing how to operate the aircraft safely is one thing. Setting the students up for failure is another one all together. At both airlines I've worked at, it is standard practice to have the Captain be a seat-fill or at least be an upgrading CA. The duties and expectations of a Captain and a first officer are completely different, especially if both people came from a non-airline environment.
As I'm sure you are aware, profiles require input from both pilots regardless which seat they are sitting in. They are the same callouts, be it positive rate on a go around or flight mode callouts on an approach. This must be graded. The ride would simply be too long to accomplish PM and PF duties from the right seat. In fact the FAA will only allow a session to be so long.
The issue that often arrises is the lack of cockpit familiarity. Not being able to find the correct button or pushing it in a timely manner.
You have bad information and I would challenge your friend's credibility if he is in fact telling you the reason he failed is because of Captain flows. His SOP knowledge and execution were likely very weak, which as I said before, is not seat specific.
This happening is so rare that I could probably give you your friend's name and employee ID. I'm not sure what your goal is by posting this information. If a student is struggling and not progressing then a seat fill will be assigned. Again, this is rare. I'll bet the house your friend isn't being completely honest with you.
05-04-2017, 09:43 AM
#480
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,606
Your guy isn't telling you the whole story. You CANNOT fail from the left seat for not knowing the Captain's flows and responsibilities. You can however fail if you can't get the basic PM duties accomplished.
As I'm sure you are aware, profiles require input from both pilots regardless which seat they are sitting in. They are the same callouts, be it positive rate on a go around or flight mode callouts on an approach. This must be graded. The ride would simply be too long to accomplish PM and PF duties from the right seat. In fact the FAA will only allow a session to be so long.
The issue that often arrises is the lack of cockpit familiarity. Not being able to find the correct button or pushing it in a timely manner.
You have bad information and I would challenge your friend's credibility if he is in fact telling you the reason he failed is because of Captain flows. His SOP knowledge and execution were likely very weak, which as I said before, is not seat specific.
This happening is so rare that I could probably give you your friend's name and employee ID. I'm not sure what your goal is by posting this information. If a student is struggling and not progressing then a seat fill will be assigned. Again, this is rare. I'll bet the house your friend isn't being completely honest with you.
As I'm sure you are aware, profiles require input from both pilots regardless which seat they are sitting in. They are the same callouts, be it positive rate on a go around or flight mode callouts on an approach. This must be graded. The ride would simply be too long to accomplish PM and PF duties from the right seat. In fact the FAA will only allow a session to be so long.
The issue that often arrises is the lack of cockpit familiarity. Not being able to find the correct button or pushing it in a timely manner.
You have bad information and I would challenge your friend's credibility if he is in fact telling you the reason he failed is because of Captain flows. His SOP knowledge and execution were likely very weak, which as I said before, is not seat specific.
This happening is so rare that I could probably give you your friend's name and employee ID. I'm not sure what your goal is by posting this information. If a student is struggling and not progressing then a seat fill will be assigned. Again, this is rare. I'll bet the house your friend isn't being completely honest with you.
I am not talking about how he was wronged, just that I think it's negative learning to put a FO and FO together during a jeopardy event like that. You quote lack of cockpit familiarity and this just goes back to negative learning. When I went to the left seat, it took 2 whole sims from the left seat to quit being disoriented even though I'd been flying the airplane for years. When you switch seats, everything is in a different place than your brain remembers it. In fact, the cockpit, to your brain, is almost upside down. Read any book about cognitive processes and it'll tell you the same thing.
At TSA, the PM functions are graded on Day 2 during the LOE.
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