PSA "Latest & Greatest"
10-16-2017, 04:51 AM
#1471
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Position: CFII
Posts: 17
Loosing Sap a deal breaker
Yes that would be a deal breaker for me also. Sap was the deciding factor for me. If it went away before class started I would have to seriously reconsider. I think it all depends on your individual circumstances and I think that PSA Airlines is a stand up company that would not be petty and penalize you for making a decision that would so greatly affect your family. Listening to the recruiters and the current pilots flying, SAP is a very big deal for most of them and if it went away there would be a huge uproar. I think it is safe for a very long time.
10-16-2017, 05:17 AM
#1472
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,244
Yes that would be a deal breaker for me also. Sap was the deciding factor for me. If it went away before class started I would have to seriously reconsider. I think it all depends on your individual circumstances and I think that PSA Airlines is a stand up company that would not be petty and penalize you for making a decision that would so greatly affect your family. Listening to the recruiters and the current pilots flying, SAP is a very big deal for most of them and if it went away there would be a huge uproar. I think it is safe for a very long time.
10-16-2017, 05:35 AM
#1473
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 521
Yes that would be a deal breaker for me also. Sap was the deciding factor for me. If it went away before class started I would have to seriously reconsider. I think it all depends on your individual circumstances and I think that PSA Airlines is a stand up company that would not be petty and penalize you for making a decision that would so greatly affect your family. Listening to the recruiters and the current pilots flying, SAP is a very big deal for most of them and if it went away there would be a huge uproar. I think it is safe for a very long time.
10-16-2017, 07:27 AM
#1477
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,340
10-16-2017, 07:31 AM
#1478
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 521
Ill copy and paste it here. I didn't write it, but it is pretty accurate.
Everyone talks about the SAP, so I thought I would give it it's own thread.
Here is how scheduling at PSA works...
AAG gives PSA all of the flying that it needs us to cover. The company dumps all of that into a computer and comes out what it determines to be the most efficient way of us covering that flying. (Although pilots rarely agree that it is always efficient). The company makes as many schedules (lines) as possible in each base. The union volunteers get a chance to review these lines and determine that they are contractually compliant. These lines are put out for bid early in the month prior. Currently, we start to bid on schedules on the 8th day of the previous month.
Even after all of the schedules are built, there is flying left over. It is put in an open time pot, and I will discuss that in a minute.
We all submit our bids, and they are assigned in seniority order. For example, if you are the #10 FO in a particular base, you will really only need to bid for your 10 favorite lines, and you will likely get one of your first choices. If you are #150 in CLT, you will need to bid at least 150 lines, and you may not get something that you really like. There are search functions where you can sort by days off, weekends off, commutable trips, and about 100 other options. You can even search of particular overnights.
Once this "Round 1" bidding closes, you will have your initial schedule, provided you are senior enough to hold a R1 line. Then, we go into the SAP (Schedule Adjustment Period). During this time, you are allowed to trade your trips for anything in open time. There are very few rules, and you can completely rebuild your schedule. There are months where I would trade every single trip that I was awarded and ended up with a schedule that was 100% different from the initial one.
You are allowed to swap a 1 day trip for a 4 day, you can swap a 4 day trip for a 1 day. You can trade two of your trips for one in the opentime pot. You can drop down to minimum days, or pick up extra flying. You can swap out of weekend trips. You can trade out of trips that are on holidays. For instance, almost every FO in the company traded out of trips during Christmas week last year, causing the company to pay 200% to anyone that would work Christmas week.
The rules are:
#1 - You can't drop to less than 65 hours of credit
#2 - You can't violate part 117 duty rules
#3 - You can not trade a trip in a month in which your medical or currency will expire.
The third one confuses people, and people get really angry about it, although it is really simple. For instance, it is currently early May and we will be bidding/sapping for June in a week or so. If, on my schedule, I have a trip that goes into July (June 28th-July 1st, for instance), AND I have a medical due in June or an annual sim event due in June, I will not be able to SAP because my schedule has a July day on it. All you have to do is to get rid of the trip that goes into July first, and then you will be good to go. In other words, trade the trip that spans June 28-July 1st for anything else, and then you are free to do it. I am not sure why people are confused by this.
The union also puts out a book that explains all of this.
Benefits of the SAP:
First of all, you can get any day off that you want. If you want every weekend off, you can do that too. Holidays, you can get those off as well.
Another benefit is that you can make more money. You can SAP down to 65 hours with the intention of picking up more flying later for additional money. For instance, my favorite trick is to SAP down to just 3 trips of 4 days each (provided I can get 21 or 22 hour trips) and crediting 65 hours. That gives me 18 days off. At this point, if I don't pick up any extra flying, I will only get paid for 65 hours. Then, once the SAP is over, any flying that you pick up from open time is worth at least 125%.
So, SAP to 65 hours and only working 12 days. Then, pick up a 4 day 20 hour trip. I would be working 16 days, and crediting 90 hours.
(65 hours + 20 hours + 5 hours extra for picking up that trip).
The good part is, if I get lucky and any one day of the trip that I picked up goes critical, I get 150% instead of 125%. That would mean that I get 95 hours of pay and only working 16 days.
Another trick is to group your working days together with only a day or two off in between, so you have at least 7-10 days off in a row every month. You can also usually take a week before and after your vacation off, and sometimes more if you have a vacation that is at the end of a month, and get 3 weeks off for 1 week of vacation.
Negatives of the SAP: It can be SLOW. It is supposed to happen in "real time", but the minute that the SAP opens, everyone submits as many trades as possible as quickly as possible. This creates thousands and thousands of trades for the computer to process. There are some people that will submit 40 or 50 trades in the first hour alone. We get a message that the trade is "processing", and it will say that for a few hours while the server catches up. Thus, it leads to lots of inside jokes about "processing".
If we were to limit it to just a trade or two per pilot, it would be much faster. Once the initial wave of trades is completed, it usually speeds up. The following morning, it is almost instantaneous. If the SAP breaks, and a server crashes, the union usually negotiates to have it extended by a few hours. The company did separate the Captain SAP and the First Officer SAP, which has improved things as well. They used to be at the same time and we were competing for server processing time. Now, they are different.
Most people try not to fly on "SAP DAY", so they are free all day to submit requests to create a better schedule for the next month.
Now, after the SAP, the company takes all of the flying that is left in the open time pot and makes as many "Build Up" lines as possible. Sometimes these will be a mix of actual trips with a few reserve days mixed in to fill the schedule.
In the second round of bidding (which happens a couple days after the SAP closes), the more junior people in the company get a chance to bid for their schedules. This "Round 2" bidding has Build Up lines, as described above, long call reserve lines, and short call reserve lines.
Once again, anyone that doesn't have a schedule at this point submits bids and it is awarded in seniority order.
TallFlyer has been posting a grid each month that shows how senior each of these different types of schedules is usually awarded. Currently, a new hire FO spends a month or two in SCR (short call reserve) at most, and then moves up to either a LCR schedule, a BU line, or a round 1 line. It all depends on base.
Here is how scheduling at PSA works...
AAG gives PSA all of the flying that it needs us to cover. The company dumps all of that into a computer and comes out what it determines to be the most efficient way of us covering that flying. (Although pilots rarely agree that it is always efficient). The company makes as many schedules (lines) as possible in each base. The union volunteers get a chance to review these lines and determine that they are contractually compliant. These lines are put out for bid early in the month prior. Currently, we start to bid on schedules on the 8th day of the previous month.
Even after all of the schedules are built, there is flying left over. It is put in an open time pot, and I will discuss that in a minute.
We all submit our bids, and they are assigned in seniority order. For example, if you are the #10 FO in a particular base, you will really only need to bid for your 10 favorite lines, and you will likely get one of your first choices. If you are #150 in CLT, you will need to bid at least 150 lines, and you may not get something that you really like. There are search functions where you can sort by days off, weekends off, commutable trips, and about 100 other options. You can even search of particular overnights.
Once this "Round 1" bidding closes, you will have your initial schedule, provided you are senior enough to hold a R1 line. Then, we go into the SAP (Schedule Adjustment Period). During this time, you are allowed to trade your trips for anything in open time. There are very few rules, and you can completely rebuild your schedule. There are months where I would trade every single trip that I was awarded and ended up with a schedule that was 100% different from the initial one.
You are allowed to swap a 1 day trip for a 4 day, you can swap a 4 day trip for a 1 day. You can trade two of your trips for one in the opentime pot. You can drop down to minimum days, or pick up extra flying. You can swap out of weekend trips. You can trade out of trips that are on holidays. For instance, almost every FO in the company traded out of trips during Christmas week last year, causing the company to pay 200% to anyone that would work Christmas week.
The rules are:
#1 - You can't drop to less than 65 hours of credit
#2 - You can't violate part 117 duty rules
#3 - You can not trade a trip in a month in which your medical or currency will expire.
The third one confuses people, and people get really angry about it, although it is really simple. For instance, it is currently early May and we will be bidding/sapping for June in a week or so. If, on my schedule, I have a trip that goes into July (June 28th-July 1st, for instance), AND I have a medical due in June or an annual sim event due in June, I will not be able to SAP because my schedule has a July day on it. All you have to do is to get rid of the trip that goes into July first, and then you will be good to go. In other words, trade the trip that spans June 28-July 1st for anything else, and then you are free to do it. I am not sure why people are confused by this.
The union also puts out a book that explains all of this.
Benefits of the SAP:
First of all, you can get any day off that you want. If you want every weekend off, you can do that too. Holidays, you can get those off as well.
Another benefit is that you can make more money. You can SAP down to 65 hours with the intention of picking up more flying later for additional money. For instance, my favorite trick is to SAP down to just 3 trips of 4 days each (provided I can get 21 or 22 hour trips) and crediting 65 hours. That gives me 18 days off. At this point, if I don't pick up any extra flying, I will only get paid for 65 hours. Then, once the SAP is over, any flying that you pick up from open time is worth at least 125%.
So, SAP to 65 hours and only working 12 days. Then, pick up a 4 day 20 hour trip. I would be working 16 days, and crediting 90 hours.
(65 hours + 20 hours + 5 hours extra for picking up that trip).
The good part is, if I get lucky and any one day of the trip that I picked up goes critical, I get 150% instead of 125%. That would mean that I get 95 hours of pay and only working 16 days.
Another trick is to group your working days together with only a day or two off in between, so you have at least 7-10 days off in a row every month. You can also usually take a week before and after your vacation off, and sometimes more if you have a vacation that is at the end of a month, and get 3 weeks off for 1 week of vacation.
Negatives of the SAP: It can be SLOW. It is supposed to happen in "real time", but the minute that the SAP opens, everyone submits as many trades as possible as quickly as possible. This creates thousands and thousands of trades for the computer to process. There are some people that will submit 40 or 50 trades in the first hour alone. We get a message that the trade is "processing", and it will say that for a few hours while the server catches up. Thus, it leads to lots of inside jokes about "processing".
If we were to limit it to just a trade or two per pilot, it would be much faster. Once the initial wave of trades is completed, it usually speeds up. The following morning, it is almost instantaneous. If the SAP breaks, and a server crashes, the union usually negotiates to have it extended by a few hours. The company did separate the Captain SAP and the First Officer SAP, which has improved things as well. They used to be at the same time and we were competing for server processing time. Now, they are different.
Most people try not to fly on "SAP DAY", so they are free all day to submit requests to create a better schedule for the next month.
Now, after the SAP, the company takes all of the flying that is left in the open time pot and makes as many "Build Up" lines as possible. Sometimes these will be a mix of actual trips with a few reserve days mixed in to fill the schedule.
In the second round of bidding (which happens a couple days after the SAP closes), the more junior people in the company get a chance to bid for their schedules. This "Round 2" bidding has Build Up lines, as described above, long call reserve lines, and short call reserve lines.
Once again, anyone that doesn't have a schedule at this point submits bids and it is awarded in seniority order.
TallFlyer has been posting a grid each month that shows how senior each of these different types of schedules is usually awarded. Currently, a new hire FO spends a month or two in SCR (short call reserve) at most, and then moves up to either a LCR schedule, a BU line, or a round 1 line. It all depends on base.
10-16-2017, 02:00 PM
#1479
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 774
Your last paragraph is flawed. The people who bid thanksgiving week off, did it for a purpose. They wanted the time off. If they didn’t want thanksgiving off then they wouldn’t of bid it. This is an incentive for those who want to work the holiday period and have a choice if they want to do it or not via SAP. Before this LOA, I’m sure most people figured the few days would go critical anyway so they’d pick up and get CCP which means they’d credit more and cost the company more.
Rather than calling out the Chairman through a fake name, email him your concerns and thoughts.
Rather than calling out the Chairman through a fake name, email him your concerns and thoughts.
It's flawed because we asked and mgmt said no, or flawed because you think it isn't fair for someone on vacation to get extra pay, or have the option of moving their vacation? I'am sorry for using his intials and won't do it again.
I used an anonymous name because it is singed and isn't changeing, therefore an email appears as Monday morning QB, and most people will get defensive of their decision making. I am simply ranting about something that will not change, and wouldn't try to force anyone to listen me.
If he announces he's taking suggestions for constructive changes for Christmas I will most defentally send in my input.
Last edited by Happyflyer; 10-16-2017 at 02:14 PM.
10-16-2017, 02:13 PM
#1480
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,244
They didn't bid it off knowing the flying would pay double.
It's flawed because we asked and mgmt said no, or flawed because you think it isn't fair for someone on vacation to get extra pay, or have the option of moving their vacation? I'am sorry for using his intials and won't do it again.
I used an anonymous name because it is singed and isn't changeing, therefore an email appears as Monday morning QB, and most people will get defensive of their decision making. I am simply ranting about something that will not change.
If he announces he's taking suggestions for constructive changes for Christmas I will most defentally send in my input.
It's flawed because we asked and mgmt said no, or flawed because you think it isn't fair for someone on vacation to get extra pay, or have the option of moving their vacation? I'am sorry for using his intials and won't do it again.
I used an anonymous name because it is singed and isn't changeing, therefore an email appears as Monday morning QB, and most people will get defensive of their decision making. I am simply ranting about something that will not change.
If he announces he's taking suggestions for constructive changes for Christmas I will most defentally send in my input.
Yes they may have not known about 200% but they could of been certain of those days going CCP. The senior folk bid these days. I’m sure they don’t care about making extra.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
