chrisreedrules

Some things to note...

PBS generates a lot more efficiencies than line-bidding. That is both good and bad depending on how you want to look at it. Bottom line though, it will mean that the company will require less pilots to do the same flying.

My biggest argument against PBS is simply this: What we have right now works perfectly fine for the pilots. What is our incentive to change anything?

And before anyone says "money", note that neither myself or many other pilots here would be willing to give up SAP even for the rates that are in the proposed TA Endeavor just got handed. To even make me seriously contemplate giving up the SAP it would take much more than that. The SAP is such a huge quality of life enhancer that it's almost impossible to put a price on it that management wouldn't scoff at.

Stratapilot

35 hours until I find out if I can hold an R1 line. Feels like Christmas Eve...

272922

The SAP really is a double edged sword to the pilot group. One the one hand, we can do what we want to our schedules and the company be damned. On the other, do that too many times, and the company starts looking at other options (read: carriers) for its flying.

Yes, every line holder can get Christmas, New Years, Thanksgiving, July 4th, Kwanzaa, Superbowl, and Curling Championship off but putting Dion on the phone every Holiday to Doug begging for more money to get his pilots to show up is a long term losing proposition for us.

Stratapilot

Yes, but AA knew that when they acquired us, and they’re intimately familiar with the SAP because US airways had the same thing. If AA really had a beef with it right now then they’d be talking about it, and nobody is except us pilots. Either way it would take a vote to get rid of it and it would take a threat so great they’d lose pilots which they’re desperately trying not to do. On the other hand it could also require a reward so great they’d end up losing the cost savings of getting rid of the SAP in the first place.

chrisreedrules

I understand what you're saying, I do. But in this market with every regional scrambling for pilots and every major, LCC, ACMI, and not to mention legacy carrier hiring full tilt in 2018 and beyond do they really think that someone else can just simply take that flying and the airplanes if they want to throw a tantrum about the contract THEY agreed to? My response is, "go for it buddy". Meanwhile there will be a mass exodus of junior CAs and FOs if they even hint of transferring flying and airplanes away. Then they will be left with a real quandary of their own making. DA, UA, SWA, and FedEx are projecting the need for roughly 3,000 new pilots in 2018 alone. If AA and our management think they have any real leverage i think they're delusional.

And something else to think about... If Endeavor votes in this new TA it's going to throw the new contracts at some of the non-WO carriers right out the window and their management teams go right back to square 1 when it comes to trying to figure out how to staff their flying. Good luck threatening our pilot group with transferring aircraft and flying if we don't fly on holidays.

How about contractually guaranteed holiday premium pay for any trip that touches a holiday? Don't like it? Shouldn't have agreed to the SAP. It isn't this pilot group's job to bend over backwards to help scheduling and management when they never help us unless it benefits them. Want to threaten to send our airplanes and flying elsewhere? Cool. I'll see ya later and I'll be somewhere else in class in less than a month.

I'm not advocating a "burn it down" mentality. I'm just saying let's deal with reality here. Don't let this company scare you into believing something that just isn't a reality right now. The answer is simple. Pay me for it and I'll gladly give up precious family time. But you're going to have to compensate me for it.

Edit: It's also worth noting that holiday pay is a norm in most industries. Just because an airline runs 365 doesn't mean it shouldn't compensate its employees for working on a holiday.

272922

There's no way that Airways had the same exact thing, a no holds barred SAP with no consideration for reserve coverage. No way.

To your last point, yes it takes a vote, but a significant pay raise plus a significant flow increase could move the needle.

I think if AA announced Endeavor sized rates at Envoy, plus 100+ CRJ growth, they'd staff it. Would there be hiccups? For sure, but in the end they'd figure it out.

See my last comment.

With a worse commute to reserve. Nice bluff.

I don't think they're bluffing. There will be some concessions to SAP as it currently operates in an Endeavor sized pay increase. There will be other things we get out of it I'm sure, but business people aren't going to risk letting their capital expenditures sit idle on important days of the year.

It's also worth noting that a lot of other industries work a lot more days a month than we do for less money. Want the holidays off? Get senior in your seat.

chrisreedrules

I am senior in my seat and I will have the holidays off. That being said I would be more than willing to work it for 300% pay for any trip touching the holidays. If they don't like that then they are more than welcome to offer less. Maybe it will get covered and maybe it won't, but I won't be flying for less. If they don't like it then they can go ahead and threaten us. Good luck with all that.

Thedude86

I heard Dion say this in the videos I watched for the most recent crew news. I have a feeling he just said that to make us feel guilty for everyone dropping Christmas. I find it hard to believe that he would need to ask American for money to help cover the holiday flying when our normal premium pay is a joke compared to most other regionals. Plus, other regionals have been offering 200% premium for the last several years and I doubt their mainline partners are the ones forking over the money. Piedmont’s 300% might only apply on a day by day basis, but they’ve been offering that year round for at least the last year and a half. I have a buddy that said they’re even offering that to FOs, not just captains now. If all these other airlines can offer premium pay like that throughout the entire year I don’t see the problem with PSA just offering it for a few holidays.

I bet if he really did call Doug it sounded more like, “uhhhh soooo all these pilots dropped Christmas and I don’t know what to do besides offer them more pay. Got any ideas?”.....”Nope. Just suck it up and pay em”

PleaseComplete

Exactly, it is a concession.

As noted in my post, PBS doesn't magically fix city pairs. Some pairs are just going to be long overnights due to work rest rules.

All that is needed is just read through some PBS Based airline threads and the gripes are the same every where.

Our rates for SDO and CCP are already below our competitors. A lot of our competitors get holiday pay, don't forget 50% DH were are one of very few that get that.

I'm my humble opinion the fix is not PBS it's trip and duty rigs.

FlyyGuyy

Both plus sap with a drop feature. Holiday pay. And 100% dh pay. Throw in improved reserve rules with transparency so scheduling can be held accountable.
Throw in a few extra flow slots. And we got a deal.
Might as well rope in the new ta rates at endeavor plus a few bucks and I'll vote Yes right away.