Pilot Mental Health - Impacts of job
04-04-2024, 01:59 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 1,155
You just cited a quote stuipulating that "scores of working airline pilots take their own life." By defnition, a pilot who takes his or her own life is suicidal. I don't define it. The pilot who takes his or her own life defines it.
If someone is suicidal, they have no place in the cockpit. None.
If the FAA determines that a person with this level of trouble needs to be removed from the cockpit, there is no room for debate that the FAA is wrong. The FAA is not wrong.
The sentiment that a pilot should have health care with impunity doesn't hold water, any more than a pilot with a cardiac condition should kep flying until he recovers. Suicidal ideology is adequate to warrant grounding.
I said nothing about me defining suicidal. Not my department, not my lane. Professionals do that. There is, however, no room for debate that a suicidal pilot has no business in the cockpit.
If someone is suicidal, they have no place in the cockpit. None.
If the FAA determines that a person with this level of trouble needs to be removed from the cockpit, there is no room for debate that the FAA is wrong. The FAA is not wrong.
The sentiment that a pilot should have health care with impunity doesn't hold water, any more than a pilot with a cardiac condition should kep flying until he recovers. Suicidal ideology is adequate to warrant grounding.
I said nothing about me defining suicidal. Not my department, not my lane. Professionals do that. There is, however, no room for debate that a suicidal pilot has no business in the cockpit.
04-04-2024, 03:10 PM
#52
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,260
There is a general sentiment that's surrounded more recent discussion of the commitee that seems to regard mental and emotional health issues as inconsequential on the one hand (with regard to safety impact in the cockpit), and monumentally critical in terms of personal need. In other words, give me my moment on the couch, but god damn you to hell if you insinuate that my condition should keep me from flying. Cake, eat it too.
A pilot should absolutely be able to seek help for any condition. A pilot must also understand that some conditions for which help is sought, are grounding items. There are those who suggest that they won't seek help, because thir grounding condition might be revealed.
Such should be grounded. Such should stay grounded until medically cleared to fly.
The two are not mutually exclusive: treatment, and medical airworthiness standards. It's not an either/or proposition. It's entirely possible to have a mental or emotional or psychological condition and be treated, and hold a valid FAA medical certificate, with or without medication. It's entirely possible to seek treatment, and to be diagnosed such that one cannot hold a FAA medical; it's also very possible that one may hold a medical with additional (and potentially expensive) evaluation, screening, or treatment.
It's utterly preposterous to refuse to obtain medical treatment for a grounding condtiion, on the basis that revealing the condition might be grounding. Think about it.
As for references to pilots who commit suicide; this is a grounding condition. Obvioiusly suicide is a career ender, but suicidal tendencies, ideation, or conditions so serious that they drive to suicide. One may not be suicidal today, but while one may kill on's self next week, one should be grounded today. Again, not really any room for debate.
A pilot should absolutely be able to seek help for any condition. A pilot must also understand that some conditions for which help is sought, are grounding items. There are those who suggest that they won't seek help, because thir grounding condition might be revealed.
Such should be grounded. Such should stay grounded until medically cleared to fly.
The two are not mutually exclusive: treatment, and medical airworthiness standards. It's not an either/or proposition. It's entirely possible to have a mental or emotional or psychological condition and be treated, and hold a valid FAA medical certificate, with or without medication. It's entirely possible to seek treatment, and to be diagnosed such that one cannot hold a FAA medical; it's also very possible that one may hold a medical with additional (and potentially expensive) evaluation, screening, or treatment.
It's utterly preposterous to refuse to obtain medical treatment for a grounding condtiion, on the basis that revealing the condition might be grounding. Think about it.
As for references to pilots who commit suicide; this is a grounding condition. Obvioiusly suicide is a career ender, but suicidal tendencies, ideation, or conditions so serious that they drive to suicide. One may not be suicidal today, but while one may kill on's self next week, one should be grounded today. Again, not really any room for debate.
04-04-2024, 08:33 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 1,155
How many airmen removed for clinical depression without self diagnosis, disclosure? I don’t know. Did know two who called it quits with a gun. Both at home, where they lived alone. The system runs largely on trust and peer oversight. It's a profession that can handle measured, wider access to advanced meds and therapy given that discretion, imho.
There is a general sentiment that's surrounded more recent discussion of the commitee that seems to regard mental and emotional health issues as inconsequential on the one hand (with regard to safety impact in the cockpit), and monumentally critical in terms of personal need. In other words, give me my moment on the couch, but god damn you to hell if you insinuate that my condition should keep me from flying. Cake, eat it too.
A pilot should absolutely be able to seek help for any condition. A pilot must also understand that some conditions for which help is sought, are grounding items. There are those who suggest that they won't seek help, because thir grounding condition might be revealed.
Such should be grounded. Such should stay grounded until medically cleared to fly.
The two are not mutually exclusive: treatment, and medical airworthiness standards. It's not an either/or proposition. It's entirely possible to have a mental or emotional or psychological condition and be treated, and hold a valid FAA medical certificate, with or without medication. It's entirely possible to seek treatment, and to be diagnosed such that one cannot hold a FAA medical; it's also very possible that one may hold a medical with additional (and potentially expensive) evaluation, screening, or treatment.
It's utterly preposterous to refuse to obtain medical treatment for a grounding condtiion, on the basis that revealing the condition might be grounding. Think about it.
As for references to pilots who commit suicide; this is a grounding condition. Obvioiusly suicide is a career ender, but suicidal tendencies, ideation, or conditions so serious that they drive to suicide. One may not be suicidal today, but while one may kill on's self next week, one should be grounded today. Again, not really any room for debate.
A pilot should absolutely be able to seek help for any condition. A pilot must also understand that some conditions for which help is sought, are grounding items. There are those who suggest that they won't seek help, because thir grounding condition might be revealed.
Such should be grounded. Such should stay grounded until medically cleared to fly.
The two are not mutually exclusive: treatment, and medical airworthiness standards. It's not an either/or proposition. It's entirely possible to have a mental or emotional or psychological condition and be treated, and hold a valid FAA medical certificate, with or without medication. It's entirely possible to seek treatment, and to be diagnosed such that one cannot hold a FAA medical; it's also very possible that one may hold a medical with additional (and potentially expensive) evaluation, screening, or treatment.
It's utterly preposterous to refuse to obtain medical treatment for a grounding condtiion, on the basis that revealing the condition might be grounding. Think about it.
As for references to pilots who commit suicide; this is a grounding condition. Obvioiusly suicide is a career ender, but suicidal tendencies, ideation, or conditions so serious that they drive to suicide. One may not be suicidal today, but while one may kill on's self next week, one should be grounded today. Again, not really any room for debate.
Last edited by PineappleXpres; 04-04-2024 at 08:51 PM.
04-04-2024, 10:53 PM
#54
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,260
Certainly no one in this thread has done or said any such thing. Except you. Just now. Anyone else (other than you)?
04-04-2024, 11:24 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 1,155
Nothing to see here. Good day.
04-05-2024, 11:11 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,819
Sorry for your loss. I don’t suppose to know their individual story, but perhaps someone in a similar situation could benefit from some of the changes now being considered by the FAA. Had they continued to fly, there is a high likelihood they did so safely and found joy in it and an escape from the issues they ultimately could not overcome alone. I and many are trying to change the culture and stigma that is anti safety.
Suicide is a result of prolonged deteriorated mental state. The current policies are anti safety and are often defended by pilots with egos that they are some sort of super hero. Extrapolating and labeling everyone who seeks treatment or just therapy as suicidal is sowing bad seeds whether they realize it or not.
Suicide is a result of prolonged deteriorated mental state. The current policies are anti safety and are often defended by pilots with egos that they are some sort of super hero. Extrapolating and labeling everyone who seeks treatment or just therapy as suicidal is sowing bad seeds whether they realize it or not.
I completed initial indoctrination at a legacy for a sim job just prior to the C19 outbreak. A pilot to pilot support representative revealed that 6 seniority list colleagues had died as result of self inflicted injuries over that previous year.
Have I wondered what dead is? Of course. Ever considered it an improvement to my personal existential circumstances, thankfully not. But even if that changes, a jump from a life of protecting others best I could, not happening. The effort to better facilitate non punitive treatment for psych hiccups has less in my experience to do with safety protocols than it does for QOL. The need to walk away from work without toting the baggage of line flying paranoia is easier for some than others. Not everyone made Eagle Scout like JB
04-05-2024, 01:17 PM
#57
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,260
Additionally, I said nothing about loving FAA current guidance; you've lied once again. (When you invent things that aren't true, that's called lying. You should stop).
04-05-2024, 01:38 PM
#58
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2024
Posts: 42
One of them a respected ASI/POI, aging former major airline ck airman recovering from a recent heart bypass. The other, middle age military/fire rescue and FAA designated examiner. 97% solid backgrounds so far as I recall.
I completed initial indoctrination at a legacy for a sim job just prior to the C19 outbreak. A pilot to pilot support representative revealed that 6 seniority list colleagues had died as result of self inflicted injuries over that previous year.
Have I wondered what dead is? Of course. Ever considered it an improvement to my personal existential circumstances, thankfully not. But even if that changes, a jump from a life of protecting others best I could, not happening. The effort to better facilitate non punitive treatment for psych hiccups has less in my experience to do with safety protocols than it does for QOL. The need to walk away from work without toting the baggage of line flying paranoia is easier for some than others. Not everyone made Eagle Scout like JB
I completed initial indoctrination at a legacy for a sim job just prior to the C19 outbreak. A pilot to pilot support representative revealed that 6 seniority list colleagues had died as result of self inflicted injuries over that previous year.
Have I wondered what dead is? Of course. Ever considered it an improvement to my personal existential circumstances, thankfully not. But even if that changes, a jump from a life of protecting others best I could, not happening. The effort to better facilitate non punitive treatment for psych hiccups has less in my experience to do with safety protocols than it does for QOL. The need to walk away from work without toting the baggage of line flying paranoia is easier for some than others. Not everyone made Eagle Scout like JB
04-05-2024, 02:00 PM
#59
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,260
A poster is making anecdotal reference to pilot suicides, and a theoretical implication or inference that the pilots job environment was in some way complicit in that suicide? Nothing has been shown to that effect: it's not enough to say "pilot" and "suicide," and make the case. It doesn't make the case. Neither does it make the case that such pilots either sought counseling (but stayed away due to fear of career impact), or that counseling was available, or that such pilots rejected counseling or that it would have made a difference. None of that; just a straw-man inference.
This career is a lot of things, but for airline pilots, it's hard to call it a hardship. One can whine about a few days on the road, or cry in one's suds about the pay, but let's not be so prissy as to fiat this into life-threatening stress to the airline pilot. If your marriage is coming unglued and that's stressing your life, don't blame it on the job. It's not the job. It's you. Own it. if your dog just came out as gay, your car just sucked a squirrel up the intake, our goldfish just came out as republican, or your maga hat blew off on the beltway and you can't find another, don't pretend these clear precursors to severe depression are the result of your overnight in a Holiday Inn Express, or because you ran out of commas to separate the zeros on your seven-figure bank account. One understands how stressful it is to decide whether you want the beamer or the mercedes, and it's hell trying to settle on either the Indian or the Harley (why not both?), and god knows the agony of waiting for a hangar to come open to house that fire-breathing Bonanza that you're saddled with at Privileged Municipal Airport is the fodder of phobias, phrenias, and raw psychosis. But after all those soul-crushing burdens, stop counting the cash, take a breath, and quit blaming one's troubles on being an airline pilot.
This career is a lot of things, but for airline pilots, it's hard to call it a hardship. One can whine about a few days on the road, or cry in one's suds about the pay, but let's not be so prissy as to fiat this into life-threatening stress to the airline pilot. If your marriage is coming unglued and that's stressing your life, don't blame it on the job. It's not the job. It's you. Own it. if your dog just came out as gay, your car just sucked a squirrel up the intake, our goldfish just came out as republican, or your maga hat blew off on the beltway and you can't find another, don't pretend these clear precursors to severe depression are the result of your overnight in a Holiday Inn Express, or because you ran out of commas to separate the zeros on your seven-figure bank account. One understands how stressful it is to decide whether you want the beamer or the mercedes, and it's hell trying to settle on either the Indian or the Harley (why not both?), and god knows the agony of waiting for a hangar to come open to house that fire-breathing Bonanza that you're saddled with at Privileged Municipal Airport is the fodder of phobias, phrenias, and raw psychosis. But after all those soul-crushing burdens, stop counting the cash, take a breath, and quit blaming one's troubles on being an airline pilot.
04-06-2024, 06:26 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,819
It's not the job. It's you. Own it. if your dog just came out as gay, your car just sucked a squirrel up the intake, our goldfish just came out as republican, or your maga hat blew off on the beltway and you can't find another, don't pretend these clear precursors to severe depression are the result of your overnight in a Holiday Inn Express, or because you ran out of commas to separate the zeros on your seven-figure bank account. But after all those soul-crushing burdens, stop counting the cash, take a breath, and quit blaming one's troubles on being an airline pilot.
A 2012 study of over 700 current airline pilots found that 54% of respondents reported suffering feelings of being depressed or anxious and whopping 78% reported suffering feelings of being burnt-out or exhausted.
In 2016, a Harvard University study of over 1,800 pilots found 12% displayed symptoms that met the threshold for clinical depression, or a major depressive disorder, within the previous 2 weeks! Over 4% reported had suicidal thoughts within the same period.
A major catalyst in this issue is that pilots are conflicted about seeking help due to the risk of losing their medical licence and therefore career, with nearly 60% of pilots in this study avoiding seeking proper help when mental health issues arise, due to these fears.
In 2016, a Harvard University study of over 1,800 pilots found 12% displayed symptoms that met the threshold for clinical depression, or a major depressive disorder, within the previous 2 weeks! Over 4% reported had suicidal thoughts within the same period.
A major catalyst in this issue is that pilots are conflicted about seeking help due to the risk of losing their medical licence and therefore career, with nearly 60% of pilots in this study avoiding seeking proper help when mental health issues arise, due to these fears.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
