JBird

This regards individuals who are judge on an individual level to have a trigger for the FAA in the files. It is not an authorization for the FAA to say they will secretly investigate everyone who applies for a 1st class and has VA disability. That’s just wrong, people are people. Measure the man (or woman) by the facts they present to you and if you think there are shenanigans, then act appropriately.

JohnBurke

You personally know three people? Impressive. Thanks for sharing. At least it's easy to remember birthdays and all that, with just three.

The FAA can't get much more aggressive than revoking certification. The only thing the FAA can do beyond that is refer for criminal prosecution, which is generally reserved for events such as Valujet.

The FAA is pursuing airman for failure to declare the benefits, AND for the conditions which are discovered as a result. The vaunted article to which you keep referring (based on the one word that you apparently actually read) explains that the degree of enforcement will depend on multiple factors, not the least of which is the nature of the condition for which the concealed benefit was awarded. Another factor is the amount of time or number of applications that the airman failed to disclose.

I'm not painting anything, brightspark. I stick to facts. You've opined all manner of rightwing conspiracy, as you continue to do now, and as I've just quoted you doing. There's no conspiracy, nor painting, nor secret, here. It's enforcement action. Enforcement action is not done using criminal law. It's not civil law. It's administrative law. Due process?

You understand that under administrative law, you're considered guilty until proven innocent, do you not? When a letter of investigation is delivered to you, it is not an invitation to defend itself, despite an invitation to tell your side of the story. It's an attempt to gain evidence to use against you in the appeal process. When enforcement action is taken, your first opportunity to argue it is the appeal, because you've already been convicted. In fact, even the letter of investigation will be used against you, and will stay in your file, formerly for a minimum of two years. Due process? Do you actually hold an airman certificate and not know this?

The FAA does not undertake investigations by first making an announcement. The FAA receives information, investigates it, and then if a determination is made to proceed further, various subjects who are party to the investigation will be notified in an effort to elicit information from them. Much of the time, their response, the defense, they think they're providing, serves as their final undoing. It's the reason why one should never respond to a legal FAA request without counsel from an attorney who specializes in admin law dealing with the FAA.

The FAA garners information from all sorts of sources. I know an inspector that initiated enforcement action based on a talk a private pilot gave in church. The private pilot talked about flying a friend somewhere and alluded to receiving something in return, lunch, etc, and the inspector, who was present in the church service, went after the private pilot. The FAA often takes reports from bystanders, or observers; private pilots commonly get busted for taking compensation or hire because a 135 operator on the field turned them in. The FAA has crosschecked state disability databases for those failing to report medical conditions or disability, and many other sources, and none of this is earth shattering or news. Except, perhaps, to you.

If you don't like the FAA's enforcement action, you're really going to hate the TSA's Rap Back. You don't know about that, do you?

So, you're a map maker. Who knew?

That's not how the administrative process works. Guilty until proven innocent. You'll get to try to prove that during the appeal process, after enforcement action has been taken. That's what your FAA record will reflect, too.

This isn't simply punishment. Someone who has failed to disclose a medical condition, and thus flown or continues to fly with a disqualifying medical condition is a regulatory violation, and may be a safety hazard. One who flies while medically disqualified is a safety hazard (and given your ignorance of everything else regarding this subject, you probably don't know this, but if you operate at any time with a medically disqualifying condition, your medical certificate is not valid during that period, regardless of whether you've reported to the FAA or not, or whether the FAA has notified you, or whether it's temporary or not. It's actually spelled out on the back of your medical certificate. Thus, no one can say they weren't warned.

You know that's a nonsensical sentence, right? Is English not your first language?

Actually, 14 CFR 67.413, already quoted and cited for you with a link so you can read it yourself, states just that. You still didn't go read it, did you? https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/section-67.413

The FAA can examine your medical application, and anything related thereto. The FAA can continue to do so even after your medical certificate has been issued. You may or may not be notified of this investigation. This not not a matter of fairness; the FAA is charged with regulating aviation in the United States. The FAA is charged with aviation safety. If you have a disability claim with an insurance company, the VA, another agency, etc, you're subject to investigation, and if you didn't claim it, you're subject to enforcement action. You're ignorant of all this, and having caught a glimpse of one corner of the enforcement and investigative process, have decided to rise up on your conspiracy-minded right-wing soapbox, indignant over one adjective used by one reporter. You'll be shocked and mortified, should you one day choose to open your eyes and find out the scope and extent of the process.

People are people..what's that supposed to mean? This is enforcement. If you don't want to become the subject of enforcement, don't violate the regulation. Pilots are expected to NOT bumble through life, ignorant and unaware. Pilots are expected to NOT conceal via commission or omission, or lie or use subterfuge or deceit in their legal dealings with the FAA. You ARE aware that the FAA medical application is a legal form, correct? (You're aware that your logbook is a legal document, too?)

Take a look at the statement that appears in the lower left corner of the FAA Form 8500-8:
It's a serious matter. It really is. The FAA's extent of enforcement action typically ends at revocation of certificates, but it does go beyond. Typically pilots receive certificate action such as suspensions and revocations, while operators receive fines, but that isn't always true, and imprisonment is also possible. It's not a kid-game. It's a legal document without the protections or process of criminal or civil law, but can quickly progress into criminal law because there are also criminal penalties for concealing, covering up, making false or fraudulent statements, etc.

This isn't a measurement of "the man" or "the woman." This is a legal issue, and no, it's not merely presented by the facts presented by "the man" or "the woman." That's why there's an investigative process. If you lie to a police officer or agent, there are consequences; regardless of what you say or the subject, the fact that you've lied, carries penalties. The same is true if you lie on a federal form, and the FAA Form 8500-8 is a legal document and a federal form. Any deceit on that form is subject to enforcement action regardless of whether it's an outright lie, or simply bending the truth, or a slight misrepresentation, or a failure to include something on the form. The FAA does not have the manpower to examine and investigate everything. It's for that reason that there are designated examiners, aviation medical examiners, mechanics with inspection authorizations, and contractors used. When it comes to the medical application, the FAA does not simply act based on what's presented by "the man" on the medical application, nor necessarily take it at face value.

An aviation medical examiner may find that an airman has filled out his medexpress application, for example, and stated on line 18.m that he has no mental disorders or any sort, anxiety, depression, etc. The AME however, while typically not a psychologist or psychiatrist, is charged with making a determination not only based on what the applicant put on his form, but his smell, appearance, memory, speech, mood, cognition, etc. Most airman have no idea that they're being evaluated for those things as the doctor makes small talk, but it's also part of the exam. The doctor is not only concerned with what the airman claimed on the exam, but what the doctor observes at the time of the exam. https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/app_pr...tech/item47/et

The FAA may, in turn, seek further clarification, and frequently does. This may take place after the medical certificate has been issued. The FAA does not simply take at face value what's presented on the form, and let it go at that. It's a legal statement, with a signature, and it carries weight. It comes with consequences attached. Hide something, take a risk getting caught, don't whine when you are caught. Every airman is subject to scrutiny. If this offends your sense of fair play, that's merely your ignorance of the process talking. That any of this may be news to you doesn't really make it news.

Excargodog

That’s nonsense. A disqualifying VA disability (ie., not just flat feet) that wasn’t reported IS CERTAINLY a trigger for the FAA in their files. And I repeat, their hired help medical looking for significant medical issues MUST retain “secrecy” of patient medical records until the person being investigated has had an opportunity to address any medical issues identified. I mean, what if the disability is the person is paranoid and delusional. You of all people ought to not want such a diagnosis stated openly without a chance to defend yourself…😉

JohnBurke

J.T. McKenna penned an article in Rotor Media about the current topic. I believe he managed to get through the entire article without using the word "secret," so perhaps intrepid conspiracy theorist JBird can do so, too.

In 2021, he posted here that his friends were getting "0% placeholders for PTSD," and that he might also, as he retired from the Army. Did he fail to disclose, and is that the reason for his conspiracy rants?

The investigation drawing in Veteran benefits is the tip of the proverbial ice berg. The McKenna article refers to the San Fransisco Social Security Benefits investigation from several years ago, very well known at the time, involving some 40,000 pilots. That was a 18-month investigation. Not a secret, either. The article notes that the VA investigation has been going on for several years, and hasn't been very secret, given that enforcement action has been coming out of the process for some time now .

Not new, not news, not unusual, not secret. The only secrets here are those that the applicants are keeping from the FAA, in violation of federal regulation AND law, when they fail to disclose, on the airman medical application.

Read the article: https://rotormedia.com/va-disability...20certificates.

JBird

So everyone who thinks the medical branch are loose cannons with unchecked authority are conspiracists? Or do you just just not like Army guys? If one of us stole your lunch money then please allow me to apologize for the group.

So for a change, you raise a great point. Should 0% be reported as a disability? That highlights what a huge problem FAA medical secretly investigating VA disabilitists poses. And that, my loquacious friend, is why this is such a grey area that should be treated at the individual level and not with blanket investigations. Its a disability that affects one’s life exactly 0%, so is it really disabling to the point it could one’s flying? Worthy of report because the VA is doing you a solid and making it easier to get through the red tape if/if the issue becomes a problem in the future?

The CFR you cite is clear. The agency requests information (which they do in the form of a standard 8500) if you forget something, are dishonest or are legitimately ignorant (like is 0% a disability?) then the agency…by the law that YOU cited has the obligation to request more info FROM the AIRMAN! Not/not go to a third party organization such as the VA and get it secretly.***Whenever the Administrator finds that additional medical information or history is necessary to determine whether you meet the medical standards required to hold a medical certificate, you must:

(1) Furnish that information to the FAA; or

(2) Authorize any clinic, hospital, physician, or other person to release to the FAA all available information or records concerning that history.

(b) If you fail to provide the requested medical information or history or to authorize its release, the FAA may suspend, modify, or revoke your medical certificate or, in the case of an applicant, deny the application for a medical certificate.***



Still standing by to hear why you called me a liar.

WhisperJet

dont forget, FAA also cross-checks NDR with the 8500. Many pilots have been criminally charged for not reporting DUIs, driving license suspensions, revocations, etc.

This is all just low-hanging fruit for the FAA.

I'd listen to JohnBurke. He knows what he is talking about.

JBird

I agree. Not reporting a disability (regardless of who diagnosis it) is grounds for a review of the facts and potentially a beat down from the FAA. All I am saying is that based in this reporting, which I think is credible and accurate, the FAA is using extraordinary methods *that do not apply evenly across the pilot population* in order to identity VA disability recipients for targeting without providing them the opportunity for preemptive clarification.

If they lied, then crush them. The egregious cases will be very clear. Years of PTSD/OSA benefits without a disclosure on the 8500…things in the vein will bubble up quickly and unambiguously. If they got confused regard a 0% TBI diagnosis, then discuss it with them, if they simply didn’t think hemorrhoids mattered in the eyes of the FAA, then educate them. If they made an honest mistake then tell them to get another class 1 within a certain timeframe and see how the dice roll.

The whole point is that the process should be the process regardless of previous employment history and VA disability recipients should be tested like all other medical applicants unless they prove they can’t be trusted via means inherent in the process.

JamesNoBrakes

You have due process. You can take it to an NTSB hearing.

JohnBurke

One can certainly appeal it all the way to the full board.

Prior to that, it's appealed to an ALJ.

After the full board, it's appealed to the US Court of Appeals.

In the interim, and forever after, it's part of one's FAA record, and before one gets a change to appeal, one is the subject of an FAA Order; eg, enforcement action. Conviction first, then the opportunity to defend one's self.

Any defense up to that point is simply an evidence-gathering exercise to be used against the airman. If it doesn't go to enforcement action, the FAA places the letter of investigation in the airman's file, and that will do nearly as much damage as enforcement action. Even if the FAA generates a letter following the initial investigation to state that evidence has not been found to further the enforcement process, the FAA will state it in terms that establish guilt. We have been unable to find evidence that you violated x regulation, but doing x is a violation of that regulation and that letter will remain in the airman's file. It's damaging, without question, and the FAA knows this.

JBird

any form of appeal after the fact will be punitive by default.