Piedmont Airlines News & Rumors
04-05-2018, 04:20 PM
#1671
Happy at PDT
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: EMB-145 CA
Posts: 983
I think people are stir crazy because of the following..
1.. removing triple premium.. obviously giving up time off for 8 hours vs 12 hours isn't worth it for many..
2.. many are being reassigned, displaced, given extra flying or jr manned, or early reports..
3.. the fatigue and sick witch hunt by a particular manager..
4.. the inability of the company to efficiently schedule resources so that 4 day trips with two days off is the only thing available.
5.. the phone ringing off the hook on your days off from scheduling.
6.. splitting up trips in base so commuters are unexpectedly having to find last minute accommodations in Philadelphia.
There are some positives out there right now, but you got a very new pilot group that is fairly p!ssed off right now.
1.. removing triple premium.. obviously giving up time off for 8 hours vs 12 hours isn't worth it for many..
2.. many are being reassigned, displaced, given extra flying or jr manned, or early reports..
3.. the fatigue and sick witch hunt by a particular manager..
4.. the inability of the company to efficiently schedule resources so that 4 day trips with two days off is the only thing available.
5.. the phone ringing off the hook on your days off from scheduling.
6.. splitting up trips in base so commuters are unexpectedly having to find last minute accommodations in Philadelphia.
There are some positives out there right now, but you got a very new pilot group that is fairly p!ssed off right now.
04-05-2018, 09:53 PM
#1672
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 15
Always held my tongue around here but I can't any longer. I won't watch another pilot be led astray by a bunch of bs.
Listen closely: do not come here. Stop thinking about it and just don't do it.
After the 2.5 week systems class, expect about another 3 months before you touch a real airplane, and another month or so before you're line qualified.
Unless you got approved to keep your old job while you wait, you are looking at a bit over 9 months on min pay (less than about $2500 take home per month), virtually no per diem, and logging zero hours. Not good. People around here yelling about "paid vacation" need to wake up.
You've probably heard the stories of $90k/yr FO's, $180k/yr CA's here and so on. I'm telling you right now, those folks are not common and at least one of them is not someone you want to share a flight deck, much less a life with. They're pushing the boundaries of 117 to do it. Lines here only leave you about 11-12 days to pick up premium, save for a few times when you can tack some on to the beginning and/or end of a trip, which adds to my next point of you will not have a family until you are done doing it. If you're fine with no family for the next 7-9 years or don't want a family at all you're good to go. That's the kind of sh!t that will even make your dog hate you. Not to mention that 3x premium they advertised on interview day is gone, making it even harder to pull in that pay. Maybe it'll come back, but do you really want to hang your hat on a maybe when there are so many sure things out there today?
Extra emphasis on the point that the annual income resulting from premium pay is not common. Don't expect that for yourself. There's not enough to go around to produce that kind of pay for everybody, once staffing is right there'll be no more need for it, and no matter how you look at it it's unsustainable.
I won't even get started too much on the schedules here. Somehow the word $hitty just doesn't say it. You will build and credit significantly less time here per month than you will literally anywhere else. Not good. When/if staffing here gets "right", unless the company is assigned more flying and makes the necessary scheduling adjustments, monthly line values will drop even more.
Be sure you're not a victim of "flow hypnosis". Do the math on mandatory retirements alone across the industry and think again about the flow. Unless you have no degree and/or some particularly damning items in your past (dui's, felonies, etc.) you won't need it.
Want AA? Don't listen to the "nearly impossible to get ots civilian hire" LIE we keep hearing chanted around here. That lie needs to be buried and pi$$ed on. I personally know of 7 regional and 4 135 pilots with no military affiliation and no 121 pic time who got there ots over the last year. That's small but get the point that that's just who I know of; imagine how many others there were. Completely debunks that "flow is the only way for civilian" bs. It's hypnotism, plain and simple. Outside of a legit need as I stated above, the flow is recruiting bs. Ignore it.
Also, that little "lesser of..." line in each WO's flow language does in fact exist. Seems like a lot of folks, including recruiters, like to act like it does not. They push the 25% line because it makes the flow sound more significant than it is. Also serves to make the ots lie more plausible as it makes it -sound- like after the three WO's take up 75% of the class slots it leaves only 25% of the slots for ots folks, which is WAYYY off from the truth. In reality, currently about 50% of the yearly slots will be ots, increasing to about 70% ots after Envoy's flow gets down to the 12/2014 folks. The 25% only exists to ensure that at least some will flow in case AA runs an abnormally small class.
If you truly need a flow, or for whatever reason really just want to work for a AAWO, go to either PSA or Envoy, in that order. Better QOL vs Envoy it seems. Either way you'll clear training in a legitimate time frame and enjoy life better. PSA just opened PHL, so non-issue there if that becomes a thing for you. 5 year flow here at PDT is gone. It's more like 8 years now for new hires even if our top 100 don't flow. No more flow time advantage here. Don't listen to anybody feeding you some "definite" number of outside attrition, no matter who they are, union, chief, instructor, whoever. You can speak to two in the same department and still get two different answers, depending on if that person is trying to fluff the flow or not. Watching the seniority list and flow reports for yourself is the only reliable way, and as someone who has been doing so for the past 2 years, I can tell you that outside attrition is all but completely negligible. Expect nearly everyone here to be waiting for their number to come up. Also, Envoy's flow wait roughly matches us and PSA for new hires so no advantage there either.
I suggest you go to either 9E or RAH, in that order. Make yourself some good money and have a pretty good time until the call comes. Your standing offers probably include at least one of these so all you have to do is pull the trigger. If not, your only current choice is RAH since 9E has suspended hiring due to the fact they're full through August.
More likely his reasons were based on the bs it seems he's starting to question. Might have fallen for it just like I and many others did, but is starting to see through it and seek advice before it's too late. Why do you think he's posting about it?
Really man, ignore this "MickeyFlies" guy's post, except for the "it sucks" part. F waiting through training just to get to the suck. Why would you tell him this? EVERYBODY knows how jacked up PDT's training situation is right now, it's no secret! Usually, other carriers won't even interview you if they know you're in training elsewhere but they're making exceptions for those wrapped up in PDT's ball of wax because of what a mess it is! Literally anywhere else will have you in an airplane little more than a month after indoc. This place's training is more like a break from aviation altogether. There'll be an 8 month gap in your logbook and you'll either have recently gotten or soon need a new medical by the time you're through.
With them knowing how inefficient and detrimental PDT's training department is they absolutely will NOT. They'll question why you -stayed-.
Unless the one leaving was within about 2.5 solid, well adjusted for bs years max from flowing, those that talked anyone down from leaving here should be drug out into the street and shot. If you're looking at over about 2.5 years left until flow or unless you live literally next door to PHL, gtfo of here and improve your pay and qol for sure instead of placing your hope in these negotiations. I think a lot of us here have forgotten the fact that these "negotiations" are simply for amendments, not a new contract. Our current contract is not up for expiration any time soon. These negotiations can end and we continue on as-is. There is nothing barring that outcome. They want something from us, but obviously do not need it. Classes are full. Folks here are still picking up open time even though it's down to double premium right now. Some folks are mad at them for it but with scheduling so bad how else are people supposed to get over guarantee? It's not even always about the money; not everyone wants to take forever to build however many hours they need to move on. 50-60 hours block/mo is slow dragging. If you just don't care about career progression that may be fine. For most, that's just not going to cut it.
You don't want this. Listen to those of us that are trying to tell you the raw truth and not those who are sugar-coating it for their own good. I don't care to try and ensure my own success by stepping on other people. I'm not cut from that sh!tty, stained cloth like some others are.
When PDT's pay, qol, and operations get significantly improved then maybe it'll be okay to come here. Right now? Absolutely not. And you're talking about moving for this place? Don't do it to yourself. This place will not be ready in time for you to take advantage of it. Maybe for those behind you, but not you.
It's hard to recommend this place even if you live in base, especially since PSA also has a PHL base now and they're a much better choice. Why do you think so many here got nervous about our future when they showed up? Better than commuting, but in this case even that may be questioned.
In fact, I'm out of here to another regional soon. And I'm not the only one by a long shot. For me it's just that bad. I wanted this place to be my only stop in the regionals, but I won't just sit here and put up with this nonsense any longer hoping for better. Better is available now for the taking. I will not sit here when I could be enjoying far better.
It's a real pi$$off because they could fix this place damn near overnight if they wanted to. Ref. MantisToboggan: this sh!t is deliberate.
I was in your exact same shoes a couple of years ago and I wish I had someone to tell me what I'm telling you. Hear me and a few others on here like MantisToboggan and Future Cpt Kirk out.
Of course I can't completely discount what "might" happen, but I will say there is no -need- to roll the dice. I'm not a high stakes gambler so my humble advice remains:
Do not come here.
...Can I ask you guys a question? I'm inside the infamous training gap now. Nobody will answer any questions about when I can get to train. I've already wasted five months waiting for an opportunity to go to work for this company, with standing offers from other airlines...
After the 2.5 week systems class, expect about another 3 months before you touch a real airplane, and another month or so before you're line qualified.
Unless you got approved to keep your old job while you wait, you are looking at a bit over 9 months on min pay (less than about $2500 take home per month), virtually no per diem, and logging zero hours. Not good. People around here yelling about "paid vacation" need to wake up.
You've probably heard the stories of $90k/yr FO's, $180k/yr CA's here and so on. I'm telling you right now, those folks are not common and at least one of them is not someone you want to share a flight deck, much less a life with. They're pushing the boundaries of 117 to do it. Lines here only leave you about 11-12 days to pick up premium, save for a few times when you can tack some on to the beginning and/or end of a trip, which adds to my next point of you will not have a family until you are done doing it. If you're fine with no family for the next 7-9 years or don't want a family at all you're good to go. That's the kind of sh!t that will even make your dog hate you. Not to mention that 3x premium they advertised on interview day is gone, making it even harder to pull in that pay. Maybe it'll come back, but do you really want to hang your hat on a maybe when there are so many sure things out there today?
Extra emphasis on the point that the annual income resulting from premium pay is not common. Don't expect that for yourself. There's not enough to go around to produce that kind of pay for everybody, once staffing is right there'll be no more need for it, and no matter how you look at it it's unsustainable.
I won't even get started too much on the schedules here. Somehow the word $hitty just doesn't say it. You will build and credit significantly less time here per month than you will literally anywhere else. Not good. When/if staffing here gets "right", unless the company is assigned more flying and makes the necessary scheduling adjustments, monthly line values will drop even more.
Be sure you're not a victim of "flow hypnosis". Do the math on mandatory retirements alone across the industry and think again about the flow. Unless you have no degree and/or some particularly damning items in your past (dui's, felonies, etc.) you won't need it.
Want AA? Don't listen to the "nearly impossible to get ots civilian hire" LIE we keep hearing chanted around here. That lie needs to be buried and pi$$ed on. I personally know of 7 regional and 4 135 pilots with no military affiliation and no 121 pic time who got there ots over the last year. That's small but get the point that that's just who I know of; imagine how many others there were. Completely debunks that "flow is the only way for civilian" bs. It's hypnotism, plain and simple. Outside of a legit need as I stated above, the flow is recruiting bs. Ignore it.
Also, that little "lesser of..." line in each WO's flow language does in fact exist. Seems like a lot of folks, including recruiters, like to act like it does not. They push the 25% line because it makes the flow sound more significant than it is. Also serves to make the ots lie more plausible as it makes it -sound- like after the three WO's take up 75% of the class slots it leaves only 25% of the slots for ots folks, which is WAYYY off from the truth. In reality, currently about 50% of the yearly slots will be ots, increasing to about 70% ots after Envoy's flow gets down to the 12/2014 folks. The 25% only exists to ensure that at least some will flow in case AA runs an abnormally small class.
If you truly need a flow, or for whatever reason really just want to work for a AAWO, go to either PSA or Envoy, in that order. Better QOL vs Envoy it seems. Either way you'll clear training in a legitimate time frame and enjoy life better. PSA just opened PHL, so non-issue there if that becomes a thing for you. 5 year flow here at PDT is gone. It's more like 8 years now for new hires even if our top 100 don't flow. No more flow time advantage here. Don't listen to anybody feeding you some "definite" number of outside attrition, no matter who they are, union, chief, instructor, whoever. You can speak to two in the same department and still get two different answers, depending on if that person is trying to fluff the flow or not. Watching the seniority list and flow reports for yourself is the only reliable way, and as someone who has been doing so for the past 2 years, I can tell you that outside attrition is all but completely negligible. Expect nearly everyone here to be waiting for their number to come up. Also, Envoy's flow wait roughly matches us and PSA for new hires so no advantage there either.
I suggest you go to either 9E or RAH, in that order. Make yourself some good money and have a pretty good time until the call comes. Your standing offers probably include at least one of these so all you have to do is pull the trigger. If not, your only current choice is RAH since 9E has suspended hiring due to the fact they're full through August.
...What kept you waiting for PDT in those five months? Likely, those reasons haven't changed. If they have then you should reevaluate your situation. I'd consider having a really good answer to the question why you left PDT during training for future interviews. They will notice that you were only here for a few months and want to know if it was a training issue. Legacy's seem to like people who show commitment to their employer over the long term as well. I would only leave if something FAR better came up. As much as PDT sucks (and it does)...
Really man, ignore this "MickeyFlies" guy's post, except for the "it sucks" part. F waiting through training just to get to the suck. Why would you tell him this? EVERYBODY knows how jacked up PDT's training situation is right now, it's no secret! Usually, other carriers won't even interview you if they know you're in training elsewhere but they're making exceptions for those wrapped up in PDT's ball of wax because of what a mess it is! Literally anywhere else will have you in an airplane little more than a month after indoc. This place's training is more like a break from aviation altogether. There'll be an 8 month gap in your logbook and you'll either have recently gotten or soon need a new medical by the time you're through.
With them knowing how inefficient and detrimental PDT's training department is they absolutely will NOT. They'll question why you -stayed-.
Unless the one leaving was within about 2.5 solid, well adjusted for bs years max from flowing, those that talked anyone down from leaving here should be drug out into the street and shot. If you're looking at over about 2.5 years left until flow or unless you live literally next door to PHL, gtfo of here and improve your pay and qol for sure instead of placing your hope in these negotiations. I think a lot of us here have forgotten the fact that these "negotiations" are simply for amendments, not a new contract. Our current contract is not up for expiration any time soon. These negotiations can end and we continue on as-is. There is nothing barring that outcome. They want something from us, but obviously do not need it. Classes are full. Folks here are still picking up open time even though it's down to double premium right now. Some folks are mad at them for it but with scheduling so bad how else are people supposed to get over guarantee? It's not even always about the money; not everyone wants to take forever to build however many hours they need to move on. 50-60 hours block/mo is slow dragging. If you just don't care about career progression that may be fine. For most, that's just not going to cut it.
You don't want this. Listen to those of us that are trying to tell you the raw truth and not those who are sugar-coating it for their own good. I don't care to try and ensure my own success by stepping on other people. I'm not cut from that sh!tty, stained cloth like some others are.
When PDT's pay, qol, and operations get significantly improved then maybe it'll be okay to come here. Right now? Absolutely not. And you're talking about moving for this place? Don't do it to yourself. This place will not be ready in time for you to take advantage of it. Maybe for those behind you, but not you.
It's hard to recommend this place even if you live in base, especially since PSA also has a PHL base now and they're a much better choice. Why do you think so many here got nervous about our future when they showed up? Better than commuting, but in this case even that may be questioned.
In fact, I'm out of here to another regional soon. And I'm not the only one by a long shot. For me it's just that bad. I wanted this place to be my only stop in the regionals, but I won't just sit here and put up with this nonsense any longer hoping for better. Better is available now for the taking. I will not sit here when I could be enjoying far better.
It's a real pi$$off because they could fix this place damn near overnight if they wanted to. Ref. MantisToboggan: this sh!t is deliberate.
I was in your exact same shoes a couple of years ago and I wish I had someone to tell me what I'm telling you. Hear me and a few others on here like MantisToboggan and Future Cpt Kirk out.
Of course I can't completely discount what "might" happen, but I will say there is no -need- to roll the dice. I'm not a high stakes gambler so my humble advice remains:
Do not come here.
04-06-2018, 05:11 AM
#1673
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: Gear Slinger
Posts: 169
As much as I agree that these are big issues, I haven't had the same experience. No one is calling me, extending, haven't been junior manned in 2 years. No trips split recently, and I always got a hotel when it happened. Scheduling never calls and I stopped calling them. (no triple preems) I have 9 occurrences and 2 fatigue in past 12 months...not a peep from the office. Is it just a trial by fire for new guys and gals or are they targeting "problem children?" Seems quite a contrast...idk.
04-06-2018, 05:24 AM
#1674
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 616
As much as I agree that these are big issues, I haven't had the same experience. No one is calling me, extending, haven't been junior manned in 2 years. No trips split recently, and I always got a hotel when it happened. Scheduling never calls and I stopped calling them. (no triple preems) I have 9 occurrences and 2 fatigue in past 12 months...not a peep from the office. Is it just a trial by fire for new guys and gals or are they targeting "problem children?" Seems quite a contrast...idk.
04-06-2018, 05:40 AM
#1676
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: Gear Slinger
Posts: 169
ROA = another dimension when compared to the PHL megabase of abuse. Two completely different operations. You guys will see once you get over to the jet... Well, hopefully not. Hopefully we move in a positive direction toward a fair market QOL with our negotiations and the remaining ROA guys will come over into a good operation. That would be nice.
04-06-2018, 05:59 AM
#1677
Happy at PDT
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: EMB-145 CA
Posts: 983
Then you’re working in a bubble that exists in another dimension of Pdt. Because you ar the minority if these things aren’t happening to you and you don’t see them. Almost EVERY captain is being extended right now. Junior mans are frequent. Section 19’s for sick and fatigue. 11 days off with 16 hour credit trips. Official company policy is no more in base hotels, at all. Senior captains being interfaced to min days off. What everyone says negative... unfortunately it’s true.
04-06-2018, 06:12 AM
#1678
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 133
11 days off is the min they have to give you so why would anybody expect to get more when we're short pilots? Junior Manning can only happen 4 times a year...plan accordingly. This is all in a contract that was agreed upon by the pilot group. Does it suck? Sometimes. Hopefully, we get some decent changes out of our negotiations that will benefit the pilots but for now we're stuck working under the contract we have. If you're sick I'm pretty sure you can prove it if anyone asks. I myself have never had managent question me about it and if they did I was ready to get a note. The fact is some people call out sick when their commute is looking terrible. That's a dick move to scheduling and fellow pilots who have to cover their lying ass. I expect most of the complaints come from commuting pilots. I am a commuter so I understand the struggle, but it is a struggle I choose to bring upon myself. If you want an easy job, move to where you work like the rest of the people in the world. I fail to see these issues as being different than what has been going on here for years. Now all of a sudden it's a problem when the competition raises the bar. I have been frustrated from being extended too, but again, I agreed to work under the current contract. With the market the way it is I have a lot of options that I am exploring and everyone else should be too. Go where you think you'll be happier. Like Trump says, if you don't like the way business is done then change the law. The company will do what they can do within the contract. If they violate that than you have a case to take to the union. When we reach a new agreement perhaps things will be better although I think there will still be complainers.
04-06-2018, 06:36 AM
#1679
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 7
Non-Commuter
11 days off is the min they have to give you so why would anybody expect to get more when we're short pilots? Junior Manning can only happen 4 times a year...plan accordingly. This is all in a contract that was agreed upon by the pilot group. Does it suck? Sometimes. Hopefully, we get some decent changes out of our negotiations that will benefit the pilots but for now we're stuck working under the contract we have. If you're sick I'm pretty sure you can prove it if anyone asks. I myself have never had managent question me about it and if they did I was ready to get a note. The fact is some people call out sick when their commute is looking terrible. That's a dick move to scheduling and fellow pilots who have to cover their lying ass. I expect most of the complaints come from commuting pilots. I am a commuter so I understand the struggle, but it is a struggle I choose to bring upon myself. If you want an easy job, move to where you work like the rest of the people in the world. I fail to see these issues as being different than what has been going on here for years. Now all of a sudden it's a problem when the competition raises the bar. I have been frustrated from being extended too, but again, I agreed to work under the current contract. With the market the way it is I have a lot of options that I am exploring and everyone else should be too. Go where you think you'll be happier. Like Trump says, if you don't like the way business is done then change the law. The company will do what they can do within the contract. If they violate that than you have a case to take to the union. When we reach a new agreement perhaps things will be better although I think there will still be complainers.
1) I plan to buy a house in the PHL area, its where I am from, and I'm excited about it. Many of the concerns seem to surround commuters. Can anyone tell me the pros/cons of PDT for FOs who live-in base? What does a normal month look like?
2) What is junior manning? I've heard it mentioned many times but still don't know what it is?
3) Im about a month out from training. Is it worth it for me to look at PSA to stay in PHL? I am blindly optimistic that the rising tide will lift all ships.
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