JamesNoBrakes

You, as the student, not standing up for yourself or other students and letting that kind of stuff happen is just as bad as a flight instructor that is surfing facebook and charging you for it. If you don't stand up for yourself now, will you later at an airline? I know instructors that carry stopwatches and charge according to that.
This is life. If the world went according to what you are saying, there'd never be any cancellation fees, change fees, and everyone is just left to wait it out for when you decide to come around. What kind of business works like that? You are entering a contract with the flight instructor by agreeing to a certain time and place. If you break that contract, there needs to be a penalty, just like many other businesses. It's not a charity. Maybe you have a good reason, if that's the case, you should be able to explain it or present the proof. Most people I worked with were reasonable in this regard, and again, if it's a good instructor they are going to "fight for" their student if they believe them.

The school I worked at had full benefits, etc. While we started out at I think $16/hr, a large chunk of the 48/hr that was charged went to those benefits, then a little on top obviously for the school and facilities. Later on I was earning way more than that of course, so to some extent some of my benefits may have been subsidized by the guys that had just started out, but the point remains that if you are not independently contracting, that difference goes to things like that, the facilities, etc. I say this because I've worked aircraft rental and ownership numbers enough to know that the difference between renting and owning per hour is usually just a few bucks, if that due to mechanic agreements and fuel agreements. Most people think they'll make bank by owning their own plane, but the cost isn't radically different and the schools are not usually pocketing huge amounts of cash on airplane rentals. Usually oral time is similar, but I'm sure there are schools out there that fall in line with what you are saying too.
Then you will do well as a pilot, doing things for free. You probably should have payed way more to do all your flight training. That's why we are in this self-feeding cycle of people who will take "any job". I should have payed more for the oral time in my flight training. Would it have been significant? I suppose, but not insurmountable. It's not a charity, it's a job.



This is not the same, high school teachers do not charge by the hour.




I hope you are taking notes, so when you are the instructor you set the bar higher and do it right.

Fluglehrer

Teaching a bunch of stuff for free is part of being a teacher?
Amazing statement. Make sure you carry that attitude to your next job, so you can vote for all the concessions that your employer wants. It's not just teachers that should do a "bunch of stuff for free", right?

PRS Guitars

Maybe there is a disconnect here. When I instructed I was an independent contractor. I charged whatever rate I wanted and the student paid me directly. So by charging for ground time it's not like I was charging my student something extra on top of what they paid the school; they weren't paying the school anything.

I guess I could have not charged for ground and just charged more per flight hour... but, bottom line my time needed to be compensated for.

Sure building hours was part of why I instructed, but I also made my living doing it. Though airlines were my end goal, I didn't sit and daydream about being an airline pilot, I focused on being the best CFI that I could. And guess what, I developed a great reputation because of that work ethic. My students were willing to pay the rates I asked (handshake to handshake). I didn't text, watch TV, etc while charging a student. My phone was on silent and I didn't dare take a phone call while working with a student. That's how a professional acts. If your instructor doesn't do that, you should address it with them. If it continues, find another instructor and spread the word about the bad one.

I don't care about fairness in life or aviation and don't need to get used to it. I'm not new at this. I was a CFI in the 90's, took nearly a 50% pay cut to join the Air Force in the early 2000's and am taking a 69% pay cut now at my job at a Major (making less per hour and per year than I made instructing 15 years ago). Of course the payoff is there in 2 years, so it's worth it to me.

USMCFLYR

Cancellation fees and such......
does that work both ways?

If the CFI cancels my training flight within 24 hours, do I get a lesson for free next time?

Reminds me of the doctor's office. They practically threaten you if you don't cancel within a certain timeframe or if you show up more than 15 minutes late for an appointment....but when you are on time, how often do you wait for 30-45 mins r more AFTER your scheduled appointment time before you are even taken to the back for vitals - still not even the appointment?

Why is this *contract* a one way street?

JamesNoBrakes

It's not a one-way street, I was able to get students "free flights" and credit hours many times. You'd be surprised how much is possible by just exploring the options and presenting the arguments to those who make decisions. Most people just "go with the flow" unfortunately. I would make every effort to have the student fly with someone else at the same scheduled time if I couldn't be there. If something affected my ability to get someone on the schedule, I made up for it on the weekend. This is the beauty of a good scheduling system and organization. They have the resources to make it happen. Although not as optimal as flying with the student's instructor, I'd still make sure the student got the activity. If they didn't get the activity and it was out of my hands, canceled because someone else took the airplane or so on, if what had transpired was against the policy/FOM, I'd be up at the chief's office getting that credit time for the student, taking it up the "chain" as far as it needed to go to get the student treated fairly. Sometimes this wasn't just monetary, but also in terms of scheduling, scheduling flexibility, and so on. If I was still in the army and it was found out that my soldier had an issue that I didn't address, I would have been getting my ass chewed out by the command sergeant major. If an instructor can't show up for an activity due to illness, then fine. If it's due to some other reason that wouldn't be excused if he was on the other end, as a student, that's grounds for termination or at least punishment, then termination if it happens again. It's a job, not a charity.

This mostly goes into what's in the "contract", and why one reads the contract before signing, but there absolutely needs to be a provision for charges/penalty if a student doesn't show up for an activity. On the same token, there needs to be reasonable accommodation for the things that happen in life. That is always a balancing act, but the management at the school always wanted to get students done. It was within everyone's best interest. Some needed a little more kick in the rear than others, but in the end, you have to run a business like a business, not a charity. Yes, it works both ways, not always monetarily, but in the general sense, I'd say yes. Again, if you aren't fighting for your student when HE is in the right then you are in the wrong. I'm so vocal about this just because I was able to get many positive changes enacted for both the students and others. Lots of people, students and management, will just "go with the flow" and not necessarily have a sinister reason for their actions that may affect or be negative to themselves or others, but again, a professional instructor has a responsibility to provide adequate instruction and this is just an extension of that.

I knew instructors that were always late, always scheduling inadequate time for their activities, next student would have to wait. Yes, sometimes stuff happens that's out of your hands, but part of providing adequate instruction is scheduling adequate time, not "just barely might work"-time. This means putting on extra time for the new guy going for his private. This means taking the whole day for that 1st cross country or a huge chunk of night time for that first night xc or whatever. THIS is where you take a hit as a flight instructor, if you finish early with one student or the transfer time or gaps and prep-time to the next. THIS is what you don't get paid for, right or wrong. If you are one of those "perpetually late" instructors, you need to find a new job and those students deserve better.

And just in reference to the other posts, about what's "expected as a teacher", as I said before, high school teachers do not get paid by the hour, but unfortunately teachers fall into a loophole of "exempt employees" in most places. This designation is intended to be for high level professionals on salary, those that earn somewhere near 100K/yr (we just had a recent court ruling in this state stating that EMS helicopter pilots can not be considered "exempt"), university professors, doctors, engineers, etc. As a teacher, or flight instructor, what "exempt" means is you can be told to work pretty much any kind of hours and not earn overtime or even get paid for the hours worked. The intent of the law was that you earn "so much" that it is compensation enough and that these kind of jobs often have odd requirements in terms of hours, so it would be impractical to get overtime or all kinds of premium pay. Unfortunately, flight instructors and a lot of pilot jobs fall into this "exempt employees" category. There seems to be some movement towards making this a little more fair and realistic, so that the "exempt" category doesn't just exist as a way to treat professional workers like dirt, but that's where the workers, elections and unions come into play. Many of these things won't be changed by people out of "the goodness of their own heart".

USMCFLYR

I like the sound of all of this 'fairness'.
Independent CFIs - how would you address this?
JNB's scenario covers a school with extra CFIs or airplanes handy.

PRS Guitars

Short notice fallout by me, I'd cut them a deal or maybe a freebie on the next lesson. It rarely happened because I needed the money. MX problem or WX CNX...welcome to aviation, it happens, they didn't pay me and I didn't cut them any future deals, as it was out of my control.

Remember, as an independent contractor you depend on your reputation and customer service to keep clients. If they feel like you are ripping them off they will (should) fire you.

USMCFLYR

What the *contract*, or handshake, would mean as acceptable cancellation purposes for the student I would to be the same for the instructor, obviously the same applies for any penalties assessed.

CFI Guy

I don't usually work with other CFIs jointly. I do have one student who currently flys with another instructor and only calls me when he's unavailable. Personally, I don't like my students flying with other instructors especially during primary instruction with my signature in their logbook.

As far as cancellation fees yes it's almost like the doctors office. During the busy months of the year especially when I have 4 students a day I cannot afford to deal with cancellations. What really is annoying is when you change three other students appointments to squeeze them in and they don't show (and you have to turn down other people trying to schedule the same day who never flake).

As I stated previously I'm not completely heartless and if someone is genuinely sick or something else comes up I won't charge them. I have rarely collected the fee. One of the schools I teach at has it in their policy that each student must sign. The policy states the student is responsible for 1 hr of airplane rental and 1 hr of the instructors time if they cancel within 24hrs. Thus far I've never seen the school actually charge someone so it's more like a deterrent and makes people think twice about canceling.

I used to have a female student who was a model and dated a super wealthy guy. She used to cancel almost every other lesson and usually at the last minute. I would receive a text message (after I texted her when she was already 20 min late) and she would say "sorry I have to cancel but I'll pay you next time" (and she did). I have another student who is a movie producer that owns an aircraft. He pays me to take care of it and fly with him. He cancels at least 50 percent of the time. Other times he shows up for a lesson but has no interest in flying (couldn't sleep, hung over, who knows what) and hands me a few hundred bucks and takes me out to a nice lunch. You can bet I charge these people. They wipe their butt with larger bills then what they use to pay me. I'm not losing any sleep and neither are they.

As far personally missing an appointment that very rarely happens. I commuted for years in terrible L.A. traffic and arrived hours early in the morning to beat rush hour. I'd rather be 1 hr early then 15 min late. I tell my students there are 2 things I have no control over which are weather and mechanical issues. If a plane breaks I try to notify the student in advance or I reserve those days for ground school. I have given a student a free hour here and there over the years when I did miss an appointment (had car accident, etc) but it was very rare.

kevmor

Do you have a contract they sign at the start of training that explains this? I have been thinking of doing this, if you don't mind providing a copy I'd like to look at it as an example.