BeardedFlyer

How is a point to point x-c flight defined when landing on water? It can't be a distance requirement so does that mean you must land on a totally separate body of water for the flight to count as x-c? ... that doesn't seem to make much sense either though.

DG1000

From FAR 61.1:

(4) Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(4)(ii) through (b)(4)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

DG1000

IOW, same body of water would count. If you are using it to qualify for a rating it has to be 50 miles away from your original takeoff point.

BeardedFlyer

Right, but "a point other than the point of departure" when on water, especially a lake for instance is difficult to define and that is my question. What if you take off on the east edge of a lake that is one mile long, one mile wide, fly around for two hours sightseeing then land on the west edge of the lake does that all count a cross country? ... common sense would say no, but then what if the lake is 40 miles long, you take off at the south end, sightsee for two hours then land at the north end... would that be x-c? If the answer to the first question is no then the answer to the second question must also be no and visa versa.

FlyerJosh

I think common sense has to apply... This isnt rocket science. If you take off from a runway that is 2 miles long and fly around for two hours sightseeing then land on the same runway, does that all count as a cross-country?

Uh. Generally speaking, No. (There are some legal precedents for exceptions such as B-52 bomber crews who fly thousands of miles and never land anywhere except their point of departure.)

But if you take off from the Gulf of Mexico near Key West and land on the Gulf of Mexico near Tampa, does that count as XC? After all, it's the same body of water, right?

Im not a floatplane pilot, but I would log it like this:
Depart: willow lake, MN
Arrive: spruce lake, MN
Notes: willow lake located near Thief River Fall, MN. Spruce lake located near Grand Rapids, MN.

Using a sectional, you should be able to figure out (old fashion way) the approximate distance between two lakes that are large enough to land a plane on.

BeardedFlyer

Correct, but if you cut the black top of that runway in half, moved the bottom section of it to a location half a mile away, called it a neighboring airport, gave it a new identifier and landed on it after taking off from the original airport that would be called a cross country flight according to 61.1 which DG1000 was kind enough to paste in here for us all to review. Thank you DG1000.

DG1000

Who ever said the FAR's had to make sense?

I'd argue your "point of departure" is where you lifted off in a seaplane. I think the FAR is intentionally vague about this. Point of departure could be your cow pasture if you are a rancher out west flying a Super Cub? Could be your backyard if you are a gyro pilot?

Better question might be what are you logging the X-C time for? If it's for a rating then the above guidelines apply. If it's just to fill up a an empty space in your logbook define it how you feel makes sense. Glider pilots can fly over a thousand miles in some cases, but will (hopefully) land back at the airport they departed from. According to FAR 61.1 though they didn't go cross-country though because they didn't land at another airport.

Extreme case: Rutan's Voyager. Around the world un-refueled but since they didn't land at a point other than departure point it wasn't a cross-country!

BeardedFlyer

Well the reason I said 40 miles in my above example is because anything over a 50 NM straight line distance is a cross country flight no matter what and yes, as AviatorJosh points out that was put in the regs mainly due to military dudes but it applies to all gravity defiers whether they are float pilots, F-15 pilots, or George Jetson.

The reason I ask is not to nit pick, but I am considering taking a flight seeing job on floats over the summer but am very concerned about which legs I would be able to log as x-c since as well as trying to seduce women with my girthy beard I am also trying to hustle the numbers required for 135 IFR mins.

DG1000

I disagree.

You have to land at a point other than departure for it to be valid. 61.1.4.i (C) "That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and"

If there is a legal interpretation out there for a specific (military) exemption I am not familiar with it. Doesn't mean there isn't; I'm just not aware of it.

If you aren't needing to qualify for a rating, and if you meet all the other conditions holding a certificate and navigation, a flight of any distance with a landing at a point other than departure would qualify as cross-country time. 5,500, 50,000. Distance is irrelevant. The landing is.

I suppose Space Shuttle time would've counted as a glider cross-country!

BeardedFlyer

Ehh you may be on to something there involving a situation with a pilot who already has an ATP, but by then it doesn't matter...

As a non ATP rated pilot at 900 hours, all my flights beyond 50nm are building towards my ATP and incidentally towards my 135 IFR 500 hr x-c requirement as well... Killing two fish with one stone as they say.