Where to draw the line?
01-04-2013, 04:24 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: Airplane
Posts: 684
Where to draw the line?
Cirrus Sr22 pilot here. I took a new job about 4 months ago that has a dual role but now I'm questioning the decision I made to continue with this.
On one hand, I am the company's corporate pilot. I fly everyone around and also help the boss get his license in the Sr22 when time allows.
On the other hand, I act as a manager of a vehicle fleet when I'm not flying. I enjoy staying busy and the pay is okay but we keep bumping heads on separating the two.
After a day or even half day spent in the office dealing with "crisis" after "crisis" I don't feel in a safe position to be doing multiple ifr legs across the state. It also inevitably turns our day into a 10-12 hour day every time we fly.
While I get wherever we are going, since I am tied to the business portion of all this, I get the pleasure of doing all the field visits with the boss. Then fly everyone back home in the same wx conditions as before. Like I said, these days turn into 12 hour plus days easy.
I feel like a day should be designated for flying or for business, but I can't safely and realistically be expected to do both, can I?
Maybe I am complaining or talking out of my ass, but then again my 13 years of flying tells me otherwise.
Thoughts?
On one hand, I am the company's corporate pilot. I fly everyone around and also help the boss get his license in the Sr22 when time allows.
On the other hand, I act as a manager of a vehicle fleet when I'm not flying. I enjoy staying busy and the pay is okay but we keep bumping heads on separating the two.
After a day or even half day spent in the office dealing with "crisis" after "crisis" I don't feel in a safe position to be doing multiple ifr legs across the state. It also inevitably turns our day into a 10-12 hour day every time we fly.
While I get wherever we are going, since I am tied to the business portion of all this, I get the pleasure of doing all the field visits with the boss. Then fly everyone back home in the same wx conditions as before. Like I said, these days turn into 12 hour plus days easy.
I feel like a day should be designated for flying or for business, but I can't safely and realistically be expected to do both, can I?
Maybe I am complaining or talking out of my ass, but then again my 13 years of flying tells me otherwise.
Thoughts?
01-04-2013, 04:53 AM
#2
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,260
Never take a job you're not willing to walk away from at the drop of a hat.
Never compromise safety. Aside from the risk to life or limb, you also risk your future employability and your FAA certification.
If additional duties are part of the job, so be it. It's hard to expect an employer to pay a salary just to be a pilot and nothing else, in a Cirrus, especially if you're not constantly flying. The employer must decide, as must you, which is your priority in the employment arrangement; flying or other duties. Your rest and safety cannot be compromised, else you can't do your job.
It's never too early or late to be engaged in the constant job search for your next assignment. If you're going to walk away (or press the threat) then it's best to have a backup plan.
Never compromise safety. Aside from the risk to life or limb, you also risk your future employability and your FAA certification.
If additional duties are part of the job, so be it. It's hard to expect an employer to pay a salary just to be a pilot and nothing else, in a Cirrus, especially if you're not constantly flying. The employer must decide, as must you, which is your priority in the employment arrangement; flying or other duties. Your rest and safety cannot be compromised, else you can't do your job.
It's never too early or late to be engaged in the constant job search for your next assignment. If you're going to walk away (or press the threat) then it's best to have a backup plan.
01-04-2013, 06:19 AM
#3
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
What you need to do is sit down with your boss and do some education. Compile your thoughts in advance and let him know why you think it's unsafe. Be unconfrontational, but also firm in your stance.
"Hey boss, I was wondering if I could chat with you about some concerns I have."
Lay out your reasoning in a logical, non-emotional manner.
"I understand that to justify keeping me around full time, there needs to be some additional non-flying duties. But I also have some concerns about safety."
Provide detailed and well researched info to back up your point.
"I've spoken with some folks that have similar types of operations. Here's what they do when their pilots have additional non-flying duties. I'd like you to consider some of these changes."
I've worked jobs that had flight duty before along with admin duty. Our rule was that if we were scheduled to fly on any particular day, that day was a "flight day" and all other non-flying duty was optional at the crewmember's perogative. If the flight was an early morning departure, we were ensured 12 hours of rest time off prior to beginning duty, even if that meant leaving early the day before.
If an unexpected trip came up that required us to fly, our duty day began at the time we first showed up for work, and we followed our normal duty day limitations. Some operations have considerations to shorten their normal 16 hour duty day by two hours.
Ultimately you need to sit and consider a few things: How is he when it comes to making a go/no-go decision? Or flying when you're sick? Is safety a true consideration or is it just lip-service? Do you have written policy on how trips are scheduled and executed that include duty day limits? Do you have a "safety first/committment to safety" letter from the owner/boss/CEO that says when it comes to flight operations, the PIC is the sole decision maker? Would your boss back you up if you decided you were too tired to fly at the end of the day and everybody had to spend the night? Would you be willing to work the same conditions for more money (in other words is this actually a quality of life issue or an actual safety issue)?
I'd suggest that you try to find some companies that have similar pilot staffing situations as you. Even better if they operate similar single engine equipment. Compile some data and go from there.
In the world of corporate aviation, it's been my experience that 12-14 (and even 16) hour days are not uncommon. However my company has duty time and rest considerations that allow for safe operation in many conditions that a normal office worker would consider crazy. Last year I spent 24 hour and 4 minutes onboard one of our aircraft continuously, but at no time do I consider any portion of that two leg trip unsafe due to the way it was flown/staffed/scheduled. In some ways that's just the nature of the beast, but I also know that if I ever thought and operation was unsafe and pulled the plug, nobody in the organization, including the CEO would question my decision.
01-04-2013, 06:51 AM
#4
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,260
While a noble idea, it's easier said than done, especially if you have a mortgage and kids to feed...
I'll be as loyal to an employer as the day is long if the employer is worthy, but I'll walk away from the job at the drop of a hat if the employer is not, and won't look back.
01-04-2013, 07:32 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: Airplane
Posts: 684
I'm still on the search for Corporate OPS Manuals to compare our practices to.
I did locate though the CEO's Guide to Staffing and Managing your own fleet, written from AVBuyer.com.
It specifically talks about how some people's ethos is 24/7 work work work, while that is not the same as a pilot. The pilot has a completely different set of duties and responsibilities and one can simply view 10-15 hours per week of flying as a waste of money.
I did locate though the CEO's Guide to Staffing and Managing your own fleet, written from AVBuyer.com.
It specifically talks about how some people's ethos is 24/7 work work work, while that is not the same as a pilot. The pilot has a completely different set of duties and responsibilities and one can simply view 10-15 hours per week of flying as a waste of money.
01-04-2013, 07:37 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Challenger 300/350 FO
Posts: 121
While a noble idea, it's easier said than done, especially if you have a mortgage and kids to feed...
What you need to do is sit down with your boss and do some education. Compile your thoughts in advance and let him know why you think it's unsafe. Be unconfrontational, but also firm in your stance.
"Hey boss, I was wondering if I could chat with you about some concerns I have."
Lay out your reasoning in a logical, non-emotional manner.
"I understand that to justify keeping me around full time, there needs to be some additional non-flying duties. But I also have some concerns about safety."
Provide detailed and well researched info to back up your point.
"I've spoken with some folks that have similar types of operations. Here's what they do when their pilots have additional non-flying duties. I'd like you to consider some of these changes."
I've worked jobs that had flight duty before along with admin duty. Our rule was that if we were scheduled to fly on any particular day, that day was a "flight day" and all other non-flying duty was optional at the crewmember's perogative. If the flight was an early morning departure, we were ensured 12 hours of rest time off prior to beginning duty, even if that meant leaving early the day before.
If an unexpected trip came up that required us to fly, our duty day began at the time we first showed up for work, and we followed our normal duty day limitations. Some operations have considerations to shorten their normal 16 hour duty day by two hours.
Ultimately you need to sit and consider a few things: How is he when it comes to making a go/no-go decision? Or flying when you're sick? Is safety a true consideration or is it just lip-service? Do you have written policy on how trips are scheduled and executed that include duty day limits? Do you have a "safety first/committment to safety" letter from the owner/boss/CEO that says when it comes to flight operations, the PIC is the sole decision maker? Would your boss back you up if you decided you were too tired to fly at the end of the day and everybody had to spend the night? Would you be willing to work the same conditions for more money (in other words is this actually a quality of life issue or an actual safety issue)?
I'd suggest that you try to find some companies that have similar pilot staffing situations as you. Even better if they operate similar single engine equipment. Compile some data and go from there.
In the world of corporate aviation, it's been my experience that 12-14 (and even 16) hour days are not uncommon. However my company has duty time and rest considerations that allow for safe operation in many conditions that a normal office worker would consider crazy. Last year I spent 24 hour and 4 minutes onboard one of our aircraft continuously, but at no time do I consider any portion of that two leg trip unsafe due to the way it was flown/staffed/scheduled. In some ways that's just the nature of the beast, but I also know that if I ever thought and operation was unsafe and pulled the plug, nobody in the organization, including the CEO would question my decision.
What you need to do is sit down with your boss and do some education. Compile your thoughts in advance and let him know why you think it's unsafe. Be unconfrontational, but also firm in your stance.
"Hey boss, I was wondering if I could chat with you about some concerns I have."
Lay out your reasoning in a logical, non-emotional manner.
"I understand that to justify keeping me around full time, there needs to be some additional non-flying duties. But I also have some concerns about safety."
Provide detailed and well researched info to back up your point.
"I've spoken with some folks that have similar types of operations. Here's what they do when their pilots have additional non-flying duties. I'd like you to consider some of these changes."
I've worked jobs that had flight duty before along with admin duty. Our rule was that if we were scheduled to fly on any particular day, that day was a "flight day" and all other non-flying duty was optional at the crewmember's perogative. If the flight was an early morning departure, we were ensured 12 hours of rest time off prior to beginning duty, even if that meant leaving early the day before.
If an unexpected trip came up that required us to fly, our duty day began at the time we first showed up for work, and we followed our normal duty day limitations. Some operations have considerations to shorten their normal 16 hour duty day by two hours.
Ultimately you need to sit and consider a few things: How is he when it comes to making a go/no-go decision? Or flying when you're sick? Is safety a true consideration or is it just lip-service? Do you have written policy on how trips are scheduled and executed that include duty day limits? Do you have a "safety first/committment to safety" letter from the owner/boss/CEO that says when it comes to flight operations, the PIC is the sole decision maker? Would your boss back you up if you decided you were too tired to fly at the end of the day and everybody had to spend the night? Would you be willing to work the same conditions for more money (in other words is this actually a quality of life issue or an actual safety issue)?
I'd suggest that you try to find some companies that have similar pilot staffing situations as you. Even better if they operate similar single engine equipment. Compile some data and go from there.
In the world of corporate aviation, it's been my experience that 12-14 (and even 16) hour days are not uncommon. However my company has duty time and rest considerations that allow for safe operation in many conditions that a normal office worker would consider crazy. Last year I spent 24 hour and 4 minutes onboard one of our aircraft continuously, but at no time do I consider any portion of that two leg trip unsafe due to the way it was flown/staffed/scheduled. In some ways that's just the nature of the beast, but I also know that if I ever thought and operation was unsafe and pulled the plug, nobody in the organization, including the CEO would question my decision.
01-04-2013, 10:45 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dream Job
Posts: 403
Wow Fourpaw, we must be working at the same place. For the past 2 years I flew an SR22 also for my company. I am also their IT Department. I started off primarily as their pilot with occasional IT duties, so I would only go in when I was needed to fix computers. Now it's the other way around. Long story short, I am pretty much on my own schedule now. If we plan on flying, then I don't go into the office. IT duties come second to flying. I'm not sure if you have the freedom or flexibility with your duties to do the same.
01-04-2013, 11:29 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
I think you need to sit down with your boss and talk about "rest" and duty days as it pertains to flying. If we are only talking about days going out to 12 hours or so I am not sure you will get anywhere... beyond twelve you should have some definite limits on the other work and a clear understanding that being rested is more important to flying than managing there vehicle fleet that particular day. I know when I was in the military and had staff duties... we had a legal crew day, that day started when I showed up in the office and I could fly anytime during that day as long as I did not exceed the 16 hour crew day. You need to come up with some sort of agreement like that with whatever length of working day you are comfortable with.
01-04-2013, 12:09 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Left seat of a Jet
Posts: 514
Welcome to the business world and associates! you may be able to explain your workplace situation with the powers that be but I would not count on it. You are not going to change the powers that be whereas you may need to vote with your feet. A difficult situation to be in, similar to a employee wanting a raise. It's your move!
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