Acechris89

Hello all,

I actually recently fulfilled my degree requirements at Daniel Webster College with a BS in Aviation Flight Operations and I'm trying to plan my next moves. At this juncture I don't have the funds to pursue a CFI rating (Yes, I know it's a great time-builder) so I've been considering other low-time options such as Banner Tow, Jump-pilot, Aerial-survey and the like. The biggest issue I've run into is actually finding these listings so I can apply for them. I've gone through my school's career services, but if anyone that's abreast of the recent teach-out of the flight program at my school may guess, they are relatively out of touch when it comes to arranging aviation-related opportunities lately. I can't help but wonder how different my experience with career services would have been a couple years ago. The only job-offer we found that I'll likely apply for seems to pertain mostly to customer-service at a local FBO that deals primarily in corporate jet services, but I'm worried that without flying for a period of time, I'll find myself quite a bit detached from my intended industry. I also recognize a need to gain more hours so that I can open up more opportunities for myself in the future.It appears that I'm going to have to do the majority of the networking from here on out on my own and I'm just really looking for advice regarding where to start or any experiences that anyone can share with me that I may reflect on a bit. Any advice is greatly appreciated. (I'm well aware of the military option, but for the sake of argument I'd like to keep the conversation allocated primarily to civil aviation).Thanks!

Cubdriver

Welcome to APC, we are a support group for struggling career builders.

If I were you I would go military, hands down the best way to get into civil aviation. Otherwise you are going to have to build hours through CFI and a string of slow, underpaid, time building jobs. Nobody likes to hear CFI, but even bottom feeder jobs require 500 hours and that's for seriously low end work like pipeline flying and aerial surveys.

You may be able to drum up some action for $50 a day doing skydiver flying maybe, go to the local drop zone and pester the owner about when is his next opening coming. He'll say get lost, but your face will be in his memory, and when you come back 6 months later with 50 more hours he might say ok let's give this fellow a try. That's how you do it, and it is SLOW GOING. It took me 8 years to get any serious time worked up, and by that I only mean Part 135 minimums.

I would suggest getting serious about CFI-CFII- and when that is done start looking for a job with a twin, then get your MEI. You have many years of time building to do unless you get those teaching certs. Get a job waiting tables, installing roofs, or driving a taxi if you need the money for a CFI- it is very important to teach if you are going through the civilian side of things.

Good luck!

Timbo

You might also consider putting your degree in Flight Ops. mgt to work, intern at a Major, or at Cape Air, or something like that, to earn money for your CFI.

All flying time is good flying time, so even if you have to take a job banging nails or digging ditches to support your flying habbit, if you want it bad enough, you can do it.

I went to DW my freshman year (1977-8), then transferred to UNH because I could more than pay for my tuition AND flying lessons (living at home), for less than what DW was charging me just for tuition, no lessons. I had to tend bar at night to pay for the lessons while at DW. At UNH I framed houses and dug ditches to pay for lessons and tuition.

Do not discount the Military. I understand if you don't want to cut your hair and shine your shoes, learn how to march in circles, etc. I felt the same, but another pilot talked me into joining the NH Air Guard, it was by far the best career move I ever made.

AND...when I got hired at Delta, (1985) it provided suplemental income while I was on the B scale pay the first 5 years. AND, I got to fly with some great guys, most of whom are among my best friends today, 30 years later.

So check around some of the other airports in your area, ask if there are any corporate flight operators based there, go talk to their pilots, etc. just to get your foot in the door.

And take any flying job you can, to build time, take a second job to pay for more lessons towards your CFI if that's the way you want to go. You never know who you'll meet out at the airport, might be someone looking for a copilot on their twin, you might get to pick up some multi time too. You won't make much money, if any, but it all goes in the log book and that's how you make contacts. When my Dad was a young CFI, he had a student who later started a Part 135 ops. He hired my Dad to be his Chief Pilot, they started with one Aztek, then added two Turbo Commaners, and later a Lear 23.

And unless you really, really, really, don't want to join the Air Guard, you should look at that as well. It's the best part time job you can ever have, build jet time, you'll learn a lot, and you can put it on your airline resume.

Acechris89

Thanks for the replies everyone. I didn't mean to write off the notion of earning my CFI with my initial post there, it's just that at my current stage at the moment, anticipating some very hefty loan bills to arrive in the coming 2-3 months, and given my current financial status I feel that it may be somewhat irresponsible to initiate CFI training at THIS current time. My concern is that the loan bills and however much I'm paying for my training may be tough to mitigate on a restaurant waiter's weekly income(it's all I have at the moment).


And Timbo: Thanks for your reply and insight. I didn't intend to completely swear off the military route. Actually, this week I reached out to a former educator of mine-he used to be a counselor at an aviation-related camp I attended at a young age and coincidentally (to my own surprise) ended up being my professor for a few of my classes at DWC and eventually the interim dean of aviation during the teach-out. He basically said 'either find the money for CFI training' or go the military route. I say this because he is in frequent contact with an ANG C-130 unit in RI and offered to write me a recommendation for an interview and (hopefully) a pilot slot with the unit. I expressed some apprehension about this because my chief concern is that after committing to the military and entering the training for the position the LAST thing I'd want would be to wash out and fly a desk for the rest of my commitment. He told me that the ANG works differently as you are given a pilot slot and expected to hold that slot throughout training until you eventually report back to the unit to begin flying their aircraft. This is opposed to the method where a great amount of applicants are taken and eventually whittled down to the best applicants. Can you comment on this? I know I can't expect to get a hard guarantee that if accepted into the unit I'll make it through the training unquestionably, but it would be nice to have some confidence in the process. I don't want to set limits for myself this early on-in fact I feel like this is a terrible mentality for any aviation professional- but I have to also acknowledge that I do only have a little over 340 hours and as such posses a current skill-set that reflects just that. Though with the military, the promise of a pension and early (for my age) access to heavy equipment does sound like a great deal. I know the military route isn't for everyone and I'm not sure exactly how I'll fair, but I'd love to hear some opinions on this.


Anyway before I get too long-winded, I appreciate the replies thus far. I plan to test the waters a bit on the civilian side of things, and as such if anyone has any suggestion of EVEN where to begin looking I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks again and best regards.

-Chris

chrisreedrules

Good luck... There aren't many jobs out there for guys with less than 500TT. I have applied at over 100 places across all 50 states and I have only had a couple things *hopefully work out. Only 1 aerial survey place seems to hire lower than 500TT guys and they are just finishing the interview process for the upcoming season. Skydiving outfits are wanting guys with 700+ if not more it seems like these days. I worked as a back-up diver driver at an airfield near here and that was just for a weekend. The only other operation where I am that hires low-time diver drivers just got shut down. I currently fly traffic watch a couple mornings a week (I honestly lucked out getting into that... but a CFI buddy of mine called the owner of the company for me and so I had an in) and I'm wrapping up my CFI currently. Get your CFI, you will be amazed at the amount of doors it opens.

Timbo

Acechris89, are you from RI? Are you willing to move to RI if you are not 'from there'? You can commute to a Guard job, as long as it's not too far to drive. We had guys who drove 1-3 hours to get to the base for drill weekends. If you are flying for the RI Guard, you could also fly for any airlines out of BOS or NYC, which is nice. There are lots of corporate flight depts. around that area too, check out White Plains, NY, etc. see if anyone needs a F/O in a twin.

When you join a Guard unit, they 'own' you. You'll be coming back to that unit when you finish pilot training (called UPT). If you do flunk out, they could offer you a different job, or let you go completely, ie. you are released, you just go away, which is more likely. You won't get stuck in a Desk Job unless you beg for one! Even then, they may not have any desk jobs that need filling!

You shouldn't worry about washing out of pilot training. You already have proven you can fly, now all you have to do is study all the books they'll give you and take the tests.

Oh, and anything less than an 85 on a test is a failure. There is a test every week.

It's work, but it's do-able. I studied more in the 49 weeks of UPT than in 4 years of college put together. I was a C student at UNH (while flying 100hrs. a month, night freight, going to class in the day) but I got straight A's at UPT. Mostly because I didn't study very hard at UNH, but I busted my butt at UPT.

Everyone in your class is in the same boat, doing the same thing, so you get together with a few of your classmates and make up 100 flash cards and play "Stump the Dummy". There's nothing else to do anyway, so you might as well study.

The best part of being a Guard guy while at UPT is, you are not competing against any of your class mates for the 10 fighters that might come down. You know what you'll be flying, and where. They all have to compete against each other to be the top in the class, for their assignments.

This is what causes some of them to freak out and wash out. They all want fighters, but guess what, very few fighter assingments come down. So most of them get heavies or T37/T38 IP slots.

Well, that, and they fact that 95% of them have zero flying time when they get in and they just can't handle the pace. It is like drinking from a fire hose when you first get there, but you already have a huge advantage, you know you can fly an airplane, so you should have lots of self confidence. All you have to do is learn to fly 'their way'.

We had one kid in our class from Embrey Riddel (sp?), he had about 800 hrs. and was active duty. He got the only F15 to come down. He did his 20 years active duty, got out 10 years ago, and he's now a Captain at UPS.


Nobody in our class with previous flying time (by that I mean at least 250hrs.) had any trouble getting through. The 30% who did wash out pretty much did it to themselves, by pannicking when they had troubles. Everyone has trouble at some point, but you just have to get over it and press on, not go into a tailspin.

I got into a big pizzing contest with my first T38 IP. He hated me. I was a smart ***, with over 4,500 hours and an ATP when I got there. All I talked about was flying for Delta Air Lines when I got out! He hated that.

I was his first T38 student. He had just returned from 3 years flying F4's in Germany, did NOT want to be an instructor, he called himself a Sh!t Hot Fighter Pilot, he even signed all my grade sheets with SHFP after his name. He was easily the Tool of the Decade, and he didn't want to instruct a "Heavy Driver" who would not kiss his *** (I was going to KC135's).

He said he couldn't believe that his formation flying tallent was being -wasted- on the likes of a Guard Heavy PUKE! So he would fly the airplane more than he would let me! He'd say, "Here, watch this!" and then he'd do 60% of the formation flying. Tool.

After he busted me a couple rides in a row, not for flying, but for being a smart *** on the radio, I went into the Flight Commander to request a new IP.

I got one, a really nice, laid back, mellow one. We got along great, and I got an "Outstanding" on my formation checkride.

So don't sweat it, you'll do fine, it is a great job and you will meet some great people. You'll meet a tool or two, too, but they are in the civi world too, so you might as well get used to that.

Timbo

Oh, I forgot to mention, every state has an Air Guard or AF Reserve unit, some of the bigger states have several, so if you live closer to CT, MA, VT, NY, check out their units as well as the RI unit. They all have websites now.


Back in my day, we had to look for smoke signals or hear war drums to find where the units were located.

Fookz92

Never forget, Anything is possible!! It is all about who you know and how you present yourself.
Just to give you and anyone who reads this a confidence booster. I just withdrew from my flight school in FL 2 weeks ago while I was in CFI class because I was hired buy a gentleman to be SIC in his citation. It is a rare opportunity for someone who is 20 years old with 220 TT. Took a 2 day class and now am SIC type rated. This weekend is my first day on the job and I keep pinching myself to make sure this is real. Wish I had my CFI as a "safety net" but I have a feeling this job will pan out well. If I can do it, anyone can!
Just letting you know anything can happen out there. Its called LIFE! Best of luck to you!

BTpilot

Go guard..
We're done here.

Thank us later.

Acechris89

Wow, congrats! I'm totally jealous. I actually had a classmate who was my partner for crew training that went to ATP for the Citation SIC type. I'm actually thinking of accepting that job offer at the FBO I mentioned earlier. I figure it will at least supplement my income while I take more lessons and hopefully build more time. It actually deals primarily in corporate flights so at worst I hope I have an ability to network a bit. I'm just hoping I don't get pulled too far from the actual flying aspect of the industry.

And Timbo, thanks again for the reply. I actually have a former instructor who is going through the same unit for C-130 training. I figure that I'll wait until he's back from training and see what he thought of the whole experience. I live in MA so the trip to RI for the weekend drills wouldn't be too bad. I recognize the enormous benefit from military service so I'm trying to keep an open mind about it. I just want to make sure it's something that's for me. Also, do you know of the tolerances regarding eye-sight? I have a mild astigmatism and can manage 20/20 uncorrected but still fair much better with my glasses. Especially when it comes to reading screens and the like. I wouldn't be shooting for a fighter slot anyway so do the tolerances change? And did you say you don't compete with your classmates at UPT?