eric841

I was thinking of giving some lifts to photographers and was wondering what the legalities and other procedures were. Specifically, if the site is under B or C airspace, do you just ask for a clearance to go there and circle, or should this be coordinated through the FSDO or some other agency first? Also, are there any other legal sticking points for a commercial pilot to be concerned with?

Any other info on the subject would also be appreciated.

Cubdriver

I have done a lot of this work and you are hitting on two major areas here. The one I am most ready to speak to is the airspace issues. In the operation I worked in we flew grids in Bravo and Charlie and often had flight grids that interfered quite seriously with arrival and departure corridors in busy US airspace. If you just show up ATC is going to say "you want to do what?", then laugh behind the microphone and that's that. For most airspace what we found most effective was to call the center and approach controls and even tower controllers individually the same day early in the morning, fax them the flight plan we intend to fly, and let them look at it first while things are cool and calm. Then we would call them back and ask what time was best for them and then start negotiating when was best time to do it and whether it was kosher to fly where we wanted.

You absolutely have to do this and there is no getting around it- they WILL turn you away if you don't. You do not need to call the FSDO to do VFR aerial work. The phone numbers for ATC are found in an AFD for the region and sometimes you can get unpublished ATC phone numbers by calling the published ones and ask. Always be polite and some of them will say "no we would never allow that sort of thing here" but most Bravo airspace has slack times and you can usually get in if you persist. When you are in there you absolutely must have constant willingness to alter your flight path at any time to suit their needs, and they will usually give you about a thousand traffic calls to cover their butts as well as maintain good separation.

Be aware it really is a two-man job flying tight grids. If you are just gathering some individual still shots it should be much easier than "hanging out" in the area like we did in our operatation for hours at a time. If a shot is too close to the arrival and departure path in a tight airspace ATC may totally deny access to it. In such a case you can usually ask for a face to face meeting with a relevant ATC manager and solve the problem that way. They always want to help but they can't let you run around loose in their zone. I think we had to do that with Chicago, New York, and maybe one other TRACON, but not very many went to that level.

As for the issue of flying people for pay, you need to be under a Part 135 certificate to do that unless you get a letter from the FSDO and do it as a sightseeing flight. There was a thread a few months ago here where a guy wanted to do Christmas sightseeing flights and we talked about that quite a bit. I'll see if I can locate it. If it is just a sightseeing kind of thing anyway and the imaging is really incidental to it, you might be able to do it that way, but if you plan to go in business as an aerial photography staging company then you are either going to have to avoid carrying anybody who is not on your payroll (ie do the imaging yourself or with your own man) or get a legitimate Part 135 license. If you tell more of the details maybe we can narrow down what you need to do.

N9373M

I just did this under part 91 VFR, in a quiescent class C airspace. It could not have been easier - the controllers were very accommodating, and let us have "run" of the place. It was not for hire, and just us PPLs flying formation over a lake taking pot shots (photos) at each other.

Obviously, your circumstances are different - for hire, perhaps a busier airspace, but we had no problems. Air to air on 123.45 and lead monitored the approach freq.

Have fun and be safe (and legal).

Chris

Cubdriver

My company did about the worst case of this: 4 hour flights saturating the Bravo at low altitude on grids that often included the most sensitive traffic lanes. We also had demanding sun angle requirements which forced us to negotiate for mid-day slots without a lot of flexibility. If you are just grabbing stills it should be no problem, but I would still call ATC and clear it with them ahead of time. It can only help.

eric841

I do have a commercial certificate, but I was trying to avoid the 135 route. I know the photographer and he has his own business. If I was to somehow be considered an employee of that business, couldn't I do it part 91 as the flying is incidental to the photography business? ...but maybe I am just trying to stretch the regs too far. I just want to do this as a part time thing to defray some of my time-building costs.

Thanks for the comprehensive response, Cub.

Cubdriver

Yeah that approach would work if you did it properly, but "properly" is the sticky part. How far is this fellow willing to go to establish you and your airplane as his own? He would need to lease the airplane and put you on payroll to make it work as a Part 91 private flight. Sounds like you want to "wing it" which it exactly what you do NOT want to do. New pilots have been in hot water getting free flight time because free flight time is considered payment for for services rendered by the FAA. Tell the fellow he can lease a plane and you will fly it as a temporary employee, paperwork with tax holding and all, or else it's a no-go deal because you do not want to risk your flight tickets.

You could go the sightseeing route as the renter/owner of the airplane, but if you tell the FSDO you are doing this (and you must) you will be in hot water because it sounds like this photographer is selling the results of your flights as real estate images or something of the kind. They are going to see him as a charter customer doing commerce through your airplane, which is not the same as a sightseer. Noy or Rick might be able to clarify this some more. Let me see if I can find the thread on sightseeing regulations we had a few months ago.

Here it is Christmas Tours

Duckdude

I don't have the regs with me, but I think you are mistaken about aerial photography flights falling under 135. I believe they are specifically exempted from 135. Sightseeing flights are too, but they require the letter of authorization and the drug testing program. We do photo flights all the time at my FBO, covering the entire state, and the feds are fully aware of it with no objections. The photographer owns his own aerial photo business, and just uses our planes and pilots.

ImperialxRat

We used to make a copy of a TAC chart, box the areas we wanted to work in sharpe, then fax them over to ATC followed by a phone call to coordinate.

Cub, were you doing Pictometry flying?

Also if they say you're unable to do something, just ask when a good time would be to do it. If they realize you're not going away they will find a time to get you into that zone. Our worst delay was shooting Dallas and Edwards Air Force Base... they required 72 hours advance coordination, then day 3 would roll around and it would be cloudy... ugh.

Cubdriver

The local FSDO opinion is what matters here. If they say it is sightseeing or they are too lazy to do the background work to determine if it is commercial photography, then I can see them saying go ahead and have fun on your sightseeing tours. It appears to be a gray area.

Sounds like you did professional photography work as well. I signed a non-disclosure agreement and cannot get too specific about what I did. I will say that it was immensely fussy work and I am happy to be done with it. It was like waiting for planets to align and we would spend an entire month at the Holiday Inn or FBO waiting for some set of conditions to appear. If we did happen to get the pictures there was little reward for the effort. Civil recon is hard work. I eventually got tired of not knowing what I was really taking pictures of, so much secrecy in it. Sounds thrilling but believe me the thrill does not last very long.

ImperialxRat

Yours sounds a bit more restrictive than ours... we had sun angle issues also, but our window for shooting was 2 hours after sunrise, to 2 hours before sunset.

The most fun (sarcasm?) was migrating around the country trying to shoot after leaves fell off before snow fall, and the opposite of once snow melts before leaves grow back. We did a lot of moving..

I was down in Harlingen/South Padre area and we seriously flew only a few hours in an entire month due to low clouds everyday. I know your pain =)