DC-3 with low timers
04-29-2011, 02:33 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
How do you know this to be true? When did you last interview with a -121?
For every story that you share about a failure, Airhoss (and others) have shared a success story?
Why should someone think you story holds more value than others?
And pure pessimists hide their money in the mattress. Neither is a good idea, but you hold to your one-sided mantra with a death grip.
USMCFLYR
For every story that you share about a failure, Airhoss (and others) have shared a success story?
Why should someone think you story holds more value than others?
Aside from that I am not a defeatist. I am more of an analyst. Some like to use the mantra of holding a blindly optimistic view about all things aviation as being holy. Try that in the stock market and you will loose your shorts.
USMCFLYR
04-29-2011, 02:36 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
Well jsf - do got that out of him.
I must have missed it in your posts where you said that your plan was too spend 10 years flying radials. My reading comprehension led me down the path that this was an experience that you wished to have, not necessarily make a career out of it - but then who knows?
USMCFLYR
04-30-2011, 07:15 AM
#43
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Interviews
Yes - and some want to fly for fun.
Imagine that????
Have you ever thought, with all of the discussions here and some of your own stories (like the CA and his friends in Alaska who you say wouldn't give you the time of day), that there might be something else besides your aviation experience holding you back?
Sorry - there are all kinds here and it seem to be what the bosses want.
Maybe you could start your own forum and have a little more control over the content?
Airhoss said it all - it made for great conversation fodder at his interviews. It certainly has a place.
There is no special line for a majority of my time either, but it came up in my interviews and is a topic of conversation with every person I fly with so far.
USMCFLYR
Imagine that????
Have you ever thought, with all of the discussions here and some of your own stories (like the CA and his friends in Alaska who you say wouldn't give you the time of day), that there might be something else besides your aviation experience holding you back?
Sorry - there are all kinds here and it seem to be what the bosses want.
Maybe you could start your own forum and have a little more control over the content?
Airhoss said it all - it made for great conversation fodder at his interviews. It certainly has a place.
There is no special line for a majority of my time either, but it came up in my interviews and is a topic of conversation with every person I fly with so far.
USMCFLYR
You will not even make it to the interview if you have wasted years in unproductive flying. That is my point. Aviation is very competitive. Any distraction could be enough to knock you out of the race. A pilot should focus on the shortest path.
Skyhigh
04-30-2011, 07:16 AM
#44
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
My point
.
Well jsf - do got that out of him.
I must have missed it in your posts where you said that your plan was too spend 10 years flying radials. My reading comprehension led me down the path that this was an experience that you wished to have, not necessarily make a career out of it - but then who knows?
USMCFLYR
Well jsf - do got that out of him.
I must have missed it in your posts where you said that your plan was too spend 10 years flying radials. My reading comprehension led me down the path that this was an experience that you wished to have, not necessarily make a career out of it - but then who knows?
USMCFLYR
Skyhigh
04-30-2011, 07:20 AM
#45
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Lets ask?
How do you know this to be true? When did you last interview with a -121?
For every story that you share about a failure, Airhoss (and others) have shared a success story?
Why should someone think you story holds more value than others?
And pure pessimists hide their money in the mattress. Neither is a good idea, but you hold to your one-sided mantra with a death grip.
USMCFLYR
For every story that you share about a failure, Airhoss (and others) have shared a success story?
Why should someone think you story holds more value than others?
And pure pessimists hide their money in the mattress. Neither is a good idea, but you hold to your one-sided mantra with a death grip.
USMCFLYR
It has been a while since I or anyone else for that matter has filled out a pilot application to UAL but lets ask.
HEY UAL guys !! Where does a pilot record their DC-6 time?? What about DeHallviland Beaver Experience? Do you have a special regard for it at all?
It might make for fun conversation in the interview but the odds are that you would not even make it that far since the computer HR machine would have screened you out long before your application even made it to human eyes.
Skyhigh
04-30-2011, 07:29 AM
#46
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
A DC-3 UAL story From the 1980's
The following is a story I wrote for APC many years ago, but it has the DC-3 and UAL in it.
I can remember vividly sitting in class as a college sophomore in 1987. My chosen major was Flight Tech and often the head of the program would walk in and interrupt class to introduce an unexpected guest. Periodically past graduates would stop by and update their progress, and it was common to halt class so we all could benefit from listening to good fortune stories told by alumni who had hardly been out of school two to three years. I remember one fellow who even wore his uniform into class. He was a new hire for TWA and happened to have it in the car and so he dressed for the occasion. Back then there were few commuter airlines and the regionals didn’t exist. It was common for pilots with barely 2000 hours to get hired strait into the majors since there really wasn’t anything else available at the time. During the 80’s United Airlines had strict requirements for hopeful applicants, 250 hours total time in airplanes and a Commercial Multi-engine license. The rest had similar requirements to apply.
We all knew that most would not be hired without considerable experience beyond the minimums but occasionally some were hired. One day a well dressed woman entered class and tapped a fellow student in the shoulder. She got up, took her books and we never saw her again. Later we discovered that she was hired by United Airlines and didn’t even finish her degree. She had flown a DC-3 the previous summer and had over 500 hours of total time - a hot prospect in those days. My personal mentor was a guy from the old neighborhood who was about six years older than me, and I watched him progress from towing gliders at the local airport to flying as an Alaska bush pilot. At 1200 hours he was hired by Cascade Airlines to fly a Cessna 402 around the state of Washington. Like clock work once he reached 2200 hours of total time and 1000 hours of piston multi engine pilot in command time he was hired by Alaska Airlines.
Throughout the years, pilot minimums have slowly crept up. United eventually bumped up to 500 hour minimum and eventually added a $25 application fee. In 1995 Alaska Airlines moved to a 750 hour piston multi engine minimum with a college degree was preferred. I knew well what these companies were doing since I spent countless hours pecking away at an old type writer on seven page applications and filling in bubbles with a number two pencil. In the late 1990’s the regionals had arrived and turbine time first appeared on the growing list of employer expectations. My first run in with it was a 500 hour turbine minimum on a FedEx application. Not PIC just 500 hours in any turbine plane as captain or first officer. Southwest Airlines broke with tradition and as everyone knows requires a 737 type rating. As time goes by the bar for being blessed with the privilege of having your information glanced at before being sent to the round file - keeps moving upwards. The country today is saturated with regionals, commuters, turbine cargo airlines and executive jet time share companies. There is a growing sea of highly experienced pilots that are eager to move on to the next level. Airlines don’t really need so much experience, but have to limit the landslide of paper somehow, so the requirements keep rising.
Recently the chief pilot of Alaska Airlines announced a new level of entry requirements. From what I read it seems that the company now will be discounting any turbine time in aircraft under 12,500 pounds gross weight. Those of you with Alaska Airlines aspirations might be wasting your time breaking in a left seat in a Kingair, Turbine Commander or similar category aircraft. It would follow that the next step will be to eliminate flight experience in smaller turbine planes all together. Apparently employers are in an enviable position of custom ordering applicants they wish to put on file.
It takes many more years of experience to reach these increasing minimums. The average age for new hires at the majors has risen from the mid-twenties to upper thirties and perhaps now low forties. My generation was hired long before the 1000 hour PIC requirement. Many who have invested the last seven years or so in the right seat at a major airline and are now are furloughed are worthless on the job market. The only choice that they have is to get in line at a growing regional airline and hope that they reach marketability before they are too old.
In the near future I expect to see other hiring airlines to follow suit. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a 2000 hour turbine 121 PIC requirement soon. Perhaps only Captain Regional Jet time will be on the good list. The question begs to be asked “how can one combat these rapidly changing minimums”? How can a pilot predict the future and have time enough to prepare for it? The only solution I can reach is to shoot for the moon and hope you are in fashion when your time comes. The best clue to the future rests in studying the past. Expectations should be set for a long road. Pilots need to decide for themselves what that future will hold and prepare accordingly.
Skyhigh
I can remember vividly sitting in class as a college sophomore in 1987. My chosen major was Flight Tech and often the head of the program would walk in and interrupt class to introduce an unexpected guest. Periodically past graduates would stop by and update their progress, and it was common to halt class so we all could benefit from listening to good fortune stories told by alumni who had hardly been out of school two to three years. I remember one fellow who even wore his uniform into class. He was a new hire for TWA and happened to have it in the car and so he dressed for the occasion. Back then there were few commuter airlines and the regionals didn’t exist. It was common for pilots with barely 2000 hours to get hired strait into the majors since there really wasn’t anything else available at the time. During the 80’s United Airlines had strict requirements for hopeful applicants, 250 hours total time in airplanes and a Commercial Multi-engine license. The rest had similar requirements to apply.
We all knew that most would not be hired without considerable experience beyond the minimums but occasionally some were hired. One day a well dressed woman entered class and tapped a fellow student in the shoulder. She got up, took her books and we never saw her again. Later we discovered that she was hired by United Airlines and didn’t even finish her degree. She had flown a DC-3 the previous summer and had over 500 hours of total time - a hot prospect in those days. My personal mentor was a guy from the old neighborhood who was about six years older than me, and I watched him progress from towing gliders at the local airport to flying as an Alaska bush pilot. At 1200 hours he was hired by Cascade Airlines to fly a Cessna 402 around the state of Washington. Like clock work once he reached 2200 hours of total time and 1000 hours of piston multi engine pilot in command time he was hired by Alaska Airlines.
Throughout the years, pilot minimums have slowly crept up. United eventually bumped up to 500 hour minimum and eventually added a $25 application fee. In 1995 Alaska Airlines moved to a 750 hour piston multi engine minimum with a college degree was preferred. I knew well what these companies were doing since I spent countless hours pecking away at an old type writer on seven page applications and filling in bubbles with a number two pencil. In the late 1990’s the regionals had arrived and turbine time first appeared on the growing list of employer expectations. My first run in with it was a 500 hour turbine minimum on a FedEx application. Not PIC just 500 hours in any turbine plane as captain or first officer. Southwest Airlines broke with tradition and as everyone knows requires a 737 type rating. As time goes by the bar for being blessed with the privilege of having your information glanced at before being sent to the round file - keeps moving upwards. The country today is saturated with regionals, commuters, turbine cargo airlines and executive jet time share companies. There is a growing sea of highly experienced pilots that are eager to move on to the next level. Airlines don’t really need so much experience, but have to limit the landslide of paper somehow, so the requirements keep rising.
Recently the chief pilot of Alaska Airlines announced a new level of entry requirements. From what I read it seems that the company now will be discounting any turbine time in aircraft under 12,500 pounds gross weight. Those of you with Alaska Airlines aspirations might be wasting your time breaking in a left seat in a Kingair, Turbine Commander or similar category aircraft. It would follow that the next step will be to eliminate flight experience in smaller turbine planes all together. Apparently employers are in an enviable position of custom ordering applicants they wish to put on file.
It takes many more years of experience to reach these increasing minimums. The average age for new hires at the majors has risen from the mid-twenties to upper thirties and perhaps now low forties. My generation was hired long before the 1000 hour PIC requirement. Many who have invested the last seven years or so in the right seat at a major airline and are now are furloughed are worthless on the job market. The only choice that they have is to get in line at a growing regional airline and hope that they reach marketability before they are too old.
In the near future I expect to see other hiring airlines to follow suit. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a 2000 hour turbine 121 PIC requirement soon. Perhaps only Captain Regional Jet time will be on the good list. The question begs to be asked “how can one combat these rapidly changing minimums”? How can a pilot predict the future and have time enough to prepare for it? The only solution I can reach is to shoot for the moon and hope you are in fashion when your time comes. The best clue to the future rests in studying the past. Expectations should be set for a long road. Pilots need to decide for themselves what that future will hold and prepare accordingly.
Skyhigh
04-30-2011, 08:15 AM
#47
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Another UAL Story
The following is another UAL related bush flying story I wrote for APC a few years back. I think it relates to the thread discussion.
In the early 1990’s I was a 20 something know nothing kid who was employed as an Alaskan part 135 single engine captain of the tundra. My mission that day was to fly up to a small village and meet a small party for a commanded scenic flight. Scenic flights were rare in the bush since you can’t even go to the dentist without taking an airplane ride so I was intrigued and looking foreword to it.
On the ramp stood four stoic figures who were staying at a local fishing lodge and wanted to see more of the area. I taxied up being careful not to blast them with dirt, and introduced myself. The oldest promptly projected him self and announced his name quickly followed by his title as a United Airlines Captain the second and third then did the same in similar style. They were all from a legacy of United Airlines hierarchy and carried themselves with the reserved poise of English royalty. The introductions were brief and I was stunned you how young a few of these United Airlines pilot sons were. At the time I was one of the leaders in the industry from my college graduating class and my best was to Captain a Cessna 207 these guys were already First Officers in the 737 for UAL. I felt small by comparison. I mean what failure had I made to be so punished by my lowly position? But still I knew few better and none who wore a white shirt to work.
The eldest son gave a short list of attractions that they wished to view and I set to work instantly to fulfill their wishes. The weather was good and the season right to view many varieties of wildlife and I felt satisfied that I met the objective. After an hour and a half we were back at the runway on final. I expected there to be some seat shifting and groans from the back as I glided to the gravel threshold but instead there was calm silence. I made a special attempt to make a smooth landing witch can be difficult in a heavily loaded 207 with oversized tires. To my relief the reunion with the earth was indeed non eventful and I was able to hold my head high throughout taxi and shutdown.
Back on the ramp the grey haired Captain projected his right hand with a five dollar bill and a stern “thank you for the nice ride” throughout the flight I was able to determining from eavesdropping that he was also involved in hiring at United so I mustered my courage and asked him what he thought of my chances at UAL and what I should do to improve my resume. With a quick glance and one squinted eye he asked only one question of me “who do you know at United”? “No one” I answered, in fact they were the first pilots who I ever met from United Airlines. After a short pause he answered a quick sentence “Not now, Not ever” and then turned and walked away.
I was stunned as if shot through with a bear gun. It took a minute or two to recover from the immediate shock of impact that those words had on my sole. I couldn’t believe that after that near perfect flight he could so coldly assess my chances like that. I mean I was a good example of a healthy normal American kid who had perfect vision and a healthy love of aviation. How could he have known enough about me and my character in that 90 minute flight to be able to give such a harsh assessment of my young chances? Years later I was able to determine that he was trying to offer a kindness through a quick kill. My guess is that he determined that without a strong introduction form someone well placed on the inside that my chances were slim. I was another garden variety suburban boy who would be lost in the ocean of clawing faces unable to rise above the spawn in order to gain attention from the Human Resources Department. His words turned out to be prophetic. Not only did I never see the interview room at United Airlines but none of my coworkers in Alaska did either.
Skyhigh
In the early 1990’s I was a 20 something know nothing kid who was employed as an Alaskan part 135 single engine captain of the tundra. My mission that day was to fly up to a small village and meet a small party for a commanded scenic flight. Scenic flights were rare in the bush since you can’t even go to the dentist without taking an airplane ride so I was intrigued and looking foreword to it.
On the ramp stood four stoic figures who were staying at a local fishing lodge and wanted to see more of the area. I taxied up being careful not to blast them with dirt, and introduced myself. The oldest promptly projected him self and announced his name quickly followed by his title as a United Airlines Captain the second and third then did the same in similar style. They were all from a legacy of United Airlines hierarchy and carried themselves with the reserved poise of English royalty. The introductions were brief and I was stunned you how young a few of these United Airlines pilot sons were. At the time I was one of the leaders in the industry from my college graduating class and my best was to Captain a Cessna 207 these guys were already First Officers in the 737 for UAL. I felt small by comparison. I mean what failure had I made to be so punished by my lowly position? But still I knew few better and none who wore a white shirt to work.
The eldest son gave a short list of attractions that they wished to view and I set to work instantly to fulfill their wishes. The weather was good and the season right to view many varieties of wildlife and I felt satisfied that I met the objective. After an hour and a half we were back at the runway on final. I expected there to be some seat shifting and groans from the back as I glided to the gravel threshold but instead there was calm silence. I made a special attempt to make a smooth landing witch can be difficult in a heavily loaded 207 with oversized tires. To my relief the reunion with the earth was indeed non eventful and I was able to hold my head high throughout taxi and shutdown.
Back on the ramp the grey haired Captain projected his right hand with a five dollar bill and a stern “thank you for the nice ride” throughout the flight I was able to determining from eavesdropping that he was also involved in hiring at United so I mustered my courage and asked him what he thought of my chances at UAL and what I should do to improve my resume. With a quick glance and one squinted eye he asked only one question of me “who do you know at United”? “No one” I answered, in fact they were the first pilots who I ever met from United Airlines. After a short pause he answered a quick sentence “Not now, Not ever” and then turned and walked away.
I was stunned as if shot through with a bear gun. It took a minute or two to recover from the immediate shock of impact that those words had on my sole. I couldn’t believe that after that near perfect flight he could so coldly assess my chances like that. I mean I was a good example of a healthy normal American kid who had perfect vision and a healthy love of aviation. How could he have known enough about me and my character in that 90 minute flight to be able to give such a harsh assessment of my young chances? Years later I was able to determine that he was trying to offer a kindness through a quick kill. My guess is that he determined that without a strong introduction form someone well placed on the inside that my chances were slim. I was another garden variety suburban boy who would be lost in the ocean of clawing faces unable to rise above the spawn in order to gain attention from the Human Resources Department. His words turned out to be prophetic. Not only did I never see the interview room at United Airlines but none of my coworkers in Alaska did either.
Skyhigh
04-30-2011, 11:07 AM
#48
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Tiller Twisting; Yoke Strangling; Button Smashing - Switch Monkey
Posts: 82
Why do I want a DC-3 job? I'm a free spirit, I'd rather spend my time flying an airplane that isn't automated, an Airplane that my grandfather might have flown during the war or for Continental when he came back from theater. I love round engines, their sound and the smoke upon start up, and the fact that these airplanes have out lasted all the Airbus and Boeing airplanes in commercial service. As much as I want to go fly 747s with my dad at Kalitta, I'd be happier flying old airplanes with round engines. These airplanes are going extinct, and before they're all gone, I'd like to have a part in it. I apologize to everyone, didn't intent on starting a debate if DC-3 time is good for 121. Just was seeing if any operators of these birds will hire any pilots with 700TT and 50 multi so I can fly something I'm passionate about.
The type of flying that these old airplanes do is NOT for everyone and it's HARD WORK. Loading the airplane, working on it sometimes, fueling them, living in them ... and to do that you have to LOVE them. But when those twin rows are clattering away, spitting fire and burning oil ... there is no music more sweet. The growl of a REALLY big fan is cool it's true ... but soon grab the throttles from a time of leather and oil and you will dream about it years later. Live it for a while dude, then tell stories about it for a lifetime at 410.
FWIW I was hired in 1996 with 650TT flying an Navy R4D (Super DC-3). Her name was Patti and she crashed in FLL after I had moved on to flying other Goonies all which are either parked in the desert, crashed and one is in a museum. Having flown DC-3's never helped me get the jobs I've had flying jets all over the world ... but it does get me gigs flying warbirds for fun. For every person that is only concerned with their resume ... airplanes are not just stepping stones for everybody ... for some of us they are romances. Each and every one special and memorable. Some more than others.
Last edited by NuthnFlashy; 04-30-2011 at 11:35 AM.
04-30-2011, 11:37 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
You have no data except for your own OPINION whether someone with DC-3 time will make it to an interview or not.
This is your negativism creeping out and infecting all aspects of aviation.
USMCFLYR
04-30-2011, 11:44 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
USMCFLYR,
It has been a while since I or anyone else for that matter has filled out a pilot application to UAL but lets ask.
HEY UAL guys !! Where does a pilot record their DC-6 time?? What about DeHallviland Beaver Experience? Do you have a special regard for it at all?
It might make for fun conversation in the interview but the odds are that you would not even make it that far since the computer HR machine would have screened you out long before your application even made it to human eyes.
Skyhigh
It has been a while since I or anyone else for that matter has filled out a pilot application to UAL but lets ask.
HEY UAL guys !! Where does a pilot record their DC-6 time?? What about DeHallviland Beaver Experience? Do you have a special regard for it at all?
It might make for fun conversation in the interview but the odds are that you would not even make it that far since the computer HR machine would have screened you out long before your application even made it to human eyes.
Skyhigh
No one has said anything about having special columns anywhere for special time; so I'll go ahead and answer that non-question. None.
Satisfied with you bogus point of contention Sky?
You still have not proven that a person with radial time won't make it to an interview. We are all waiting for proof of this concept and you provide nothing - as usual - in the way of anything other than negative opinions. Where do you get these "odds" you speak of?
You seem to assume that we are talking about someone applying to UAL with nothing other than the round engine to fill their resume. If this is your contention, I'm thinking many on here might agree with you, but I haven't taken this thread in such a manner. We are talking about someone adding such time to an already attractive resume and your thinking that this "side track" will derail them. That has already been proven a false notion by many on here who have done that exact thing.
USMCFLYR
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