BeardedFlyer

Crimson,

First, here is the problem for a low time commercial pilot: without 135 IFR mins, or the times to be hired by a regional, what other options are out there other than single engine day VFR? Nobody is going to pay you to fly a King air with 400 total time and 20 hours ME.

Second, the pay can start at $30-$35 an hour at the better companies.

Third, towing banners is not dangerous in itself, the level of danger depends on the level of maintenance. You say you worked for crummy companies; it is unfortunate that there are operations out there that do not care about the safety of their pilots, those are the places that we should all stay far away from. But there are some out there make sure the planes stay in good shape.

BeachBum82

Beardedflyer,

As far as starting up an operation. There are people who do the one man band kind of thing. Actually that is how my father started out, one airplane, one guy flying it, and yours truely setting up signs. Gradually over the years it has grown into a very lucrative operation with multiple planes, pilots, and ground crew. First off before buying the plane, equipment, and what not, a trip to the local FSDO is in order. You'll need a waiver in order to tow commercially, the guys at the FSDO will be able to outline exactly what is involved. I can't give you exact details because every FSDO has different set of rules, and they don't communicate. Our waiver covers a three state area. It also allows us over flight of stadiums, NASCAR events, state fairs, ect....basically large gatherings. It also outlines, altitudes we are permitted to fly, and general location specific procedures. (We tow over a heavy beach resort area, so the waiver is specific as to which way to turn when we make our climbs, away from the crowds). General details such as those are what the FSDO will help you outline. Next thing will be to get the plane, it will have to be inspected, put on the waiver, then you'll have to demonstrate a pick, tow around the patch and drop for the FAA. They stand on the ground and watch you do it. Keep in mind it will have to also have 100 hr inspections, another cost. As far as equipment, GASSER banners is where we get the red letters from and I don't order that stuff so I can't say for sure what a letter runs right now price wise. We have such a huge inventory we don't order much anymore, and a lot of ours was acquired by scooping up used stuff from smaller operators going out of business. Also finding an airport and getting approval to tow out of it is another step, it's always preferable to have one very short distance to your target area.

As far as clients, I would say areas with large concentrations of people outdoors would be where to start. From there it really depends. We have TONS of restaurants, beach shops, outdoor tour operators, seafood markets, put put golf, go cart tracks, you name it. Anything people can do in a beach town, they advertise. And for those clients, on your down time you'll have to go sell yourself to them, walk in and pitch your sales speech. Once word gets out, and shop owner A see's shop owner B's banner go by on his saturday off, that's how it typically starts to unfold.


to address Crimsons statement that its dangerous. Certainly is. No argument. So is driving down the interstate in the pouring rain at 75 mph with no tread on your tires. Yet people do that every day without a second thought. Like I've said before it's largely as dangerous as you make it. Granted there are operators that don't give a hoot about maintaining the planes and equipment, but there are also those who certainly do. Because at the end of the day, a little money spent on general maintenance can go a long way towards the bottom line. However anyone who is in this industry for any time will soon learn that is everywhere. I've worked for charter companies that fixed write ups ASAP, and those who would rather you limp it along, at some point we will all come across those issues. And you have choices, do it their way, or do it your way. Your way might end up being to move on down the road, nothing wrong with that.

Last note,

As far as worthless time. It's not worthless, it's flight time. Like I said before, I have roughly 2000 hrs towing banners, I am currently flying for an airline. Prior to the airlines and post banner towing, I few Beechjets, MU300s, three different Citations, and Learjets. It's really about the contacts you have, not the type of flight time. Once you get to a regional, and believe me they will hire you with banner time, you build a couple thousand hours and once things start moving again the majors will look at the banner towing as a blip on the resume. That I can attest to based on how many people I work with or know who towed and are currently flying at majors. Contacts is what gets you up the ladder. At our banner company, we have yet to have a pilot not be successful in moving up the ladder. All of them are flying corporate, freight or for the airlines.

BeachBum82

One important note for Bearded,

Safety is not just purely on maintenance. Good training is what is really going to keep you alive. Our guys get 10 hrs or training before they are cut loose. It's an insurance requirement for us, but it's also important to me personally that when I send you off on your own I know you will handle any problems without question. I'm kind of a hard a$$ during the training but it's not because I don't like a guy or girl. It's purely to make a strong point that if you are reckless or careless then indeed, it's very dangerous and will bite you.

CrimsonEclipse

I'm glad to see the pay went up.

If you start banner towing without 135 mins, you will leave banner without 135 mins. (no Cross country time)

Check mark manuevers on pickup is where most people crash.

And I've seen 5 banner planes crash. Sadly, the 2 fatal ones were with the good company.
(nothing against said company, they really ARE safer)

Then there's the hazards of the hook: wrapping the around the rudder horn (seen twice), wrap around the elevator (seen once), wrap around the tail wheel so the pilot had to land with the banner (seen twice), and banners simply not let go (happened to me more than once). Each situation can kill you.

Even with the good company there was pressure to fly in IFR weather, high winds (the airplanes stall at 32kts, not easy to land with a 35kt x-wind)

I won't even start about the BAD companies.

If you're looking for a job, the order should be:
Regional (some start out at 250tt)
135
CFI/pipeline patrol (tie)
Banner

You can limit the risk with excellent maintenance, excellent training, and weeding out the cowboy/macho attitudes.

At the end of the day, it will always be MUCH more dangerous.

BeardedFlyer

Good points, (except NO regionals are hiring under 500TT) now I really don't know what to think. I guess flying in general is just a dangerous profession. A big 141 flight school in my town just had two fatal training accidents within the last month; one mid air collison and the cause of the second is still unknown. So you can't say instructing is "safe" either. Others say pipeline patrol is also very dangerous.

At the bigger companies you do get sent around to different locations which does end up getting you a decent amount of x-c time, following the NASCAR circuit for insance.

I'm most likely going to end up taking a banner job coming up here in the Spring; there just don't seem to be any other options for a fresh commercial pilot and I need to get my times up. It looks pretty fun actually.

9kBud

Fixed it for ya!

jsfBoat

Check out the Gulfstream thread. They're hiring guys with 500TT and less, but I think guys should get some more time before venturing on this route.

hobulheinrik

I would love to do this to build time for a summer or two.. BeachBum82 where did you fly them?

nehringer

I've been looking at this too. My one local guy wants me to pay him $2,000 for training so he can pay me $10 a pick. So, my first 200 picks are basically free. How long does that take? I'm guessing about 20-30 minutes per loop? Dunno. That's 3 an hour at best. We'll work with that number. 66.6 hours is what I'm coming up with. If I could fly Monday through Monday for 8 hours per day, 3 picks per hour, it's possible. Then I could be making money. Does this math make sense, or is this fantasy? If it's real, and upwards of 50 hours per week is realistic, then the money could be pretty good by the end of a season.

flydog431

I worked banner towing about 10 years ago and those numbers are wildly unrealistic. Where I worked in South Florida, it took 20 minutes just to travel to and from the beach, and then we would spend anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour dragging the banner. An hour per banner was about average, and in some cases we would tow a banner for several hours.

You also forgot to factor in time for refueling, missing picks, circling while the ground crew gets their act together, and dealing with broken airplanes and banners. Most places also require you to help with putting banners together and perform other non-flying work.

In addition, business fluctuates during the week and through the year, generally peaking on weekends when people are at the beach or outdoors, or during sporting events. Weekdays were generally dead where I worked (no one is going to pay to drag a banner over the beach while everyone is at work). In some areas of the country, business will drop to nearly zero during certain times of the year (Florida during the summer, the Northeast in the winter).

Realistically, you might fly 20-30 hours a week during the peak season, while working 30-40 hours, and tow an average of 1 banner per flight hour. Off peak you may not work at all if you are junior, while the senior pilots may continue to work about the same.

Based on the $10 per pick compensation, it may take you the entire summer to recover the cost. Keep in mind, a lot of people don't make either don't make it through training or last just a few weeks.