WingsNthings

I have a question for everyone here on which is better: quality of time or quantity of time? Just as a little background, I have my commercial and multi certs with 285 hours total time and 65 multi. My long term goal is to fly for the airlines, although I would like to teach I’d be willing to take any job that would put me closer to my career goals.

I was originally planning on going to ATP’s CFI/II/ MEI program next February, and then hopefully find a teaching job where I could build time quickly. I have always heard that becoming a CFI, working a teaching gig for a year or two (or more) and then going to the regional’s was the tried and true ‘best’ route for ending up at that job at the major airlines. Also, as I stated before I wouldn’t mind teaching, and in fact if I got hired today at another pilot job I would still want to get my CFI to teach on the side.
Since I made these plans (although nothing is set in stone yet) I have been presented the possibility of doing some charter flying at the FBO I currently work line service at. The FBO has a King Air, a C-310, a twin commander, a SR-22 and a Bonanza that they do 135 charters in and/or operate part 91 for aircraft’s owners. One of their pilots told me that their business has finally been picking up recently and they might be willing to bring me on part-time, if and only if, I got my CFI at the FBO. The part-time flying would entail mostly right-seat in the commander, king air, and 310 - and might eventually lead to some PIC in the Bonaza, 310 and Cirrus when I meet insurance requirements. I know that the commander and 310 do not have a working 3-axis autopilot so they need a SIC legally. I don’t know the details on if/how I would log time in the king air. One of my co-workers was extended this offer to fly part-time in addition to his line service duties last summer. He told me he averages about 15-20 hours per month, about half as SIC in the commander and 310 and the other half as PIC in the Bonanza. So I am not looking at the prospect of a lot of flight time, but some multi and multi turbine thrown in. One of our customers owns a 152 and lets me borrow the plane for the cost of fuel. I've been flying that about 5 hours a month and I would probably continue do so if I stay here.

The part that bothers me the most is that they want me to get my CFI here. They don’t even have a complex plane that I can take the checkride in (because of insurance I minimums). They suggested I take the ride in the 152 and then rent a 172rg from an FBO 100 miles away to do the required landings and whatnot that has to be done in a complex plane. They are really pressuring me to make a decision quickly of whether or not I want to do this and work to get my CFI before Christmas, or be close to getting it by then. The sudden pressure is what bothers me the most, and there isn’t even a solid guarantee that I will get any flight time even if I do this. Hell - I don’t even know how I will scrape together the money so soon unless I charge it all on credit cards. I work two jobs, the winter weather is setting in and with the holidays I don’t really know where I will get the time for this even if I find the money.

When I told a CFI friend about this he told me that he thought this was a bad idea. He said the SIC flight time is questionable for future employers (which I have read here in these forums and heard elsewhere). Also, his biggest concern was that if things did not pan out with getting flight time, it would be a lot harder for me to find a CFI job after getting my CFI in such an ad hoc way. He acted like the combination of doing this independent of attending an actual flight school and doing the checkride in the 152 and only using the complex for the bare minimum would look bad to a prospective employer. Also, he brought up the point that rushing to get this done so quickly, and with instructors who don’t teach much anymore (and god knows when their last CFI student was) would increase the likelihood that I could fail the ride – and I know its already a tough checkride even with the best preparation.

So my question is: if I take this opportunity will this more ‘quality’ flight time get me closer of my goal of flying for the airlines? Or is logging SIC time in a single pilot plane (albeit mutli-turbine) really ‘quality’ time at all? Would I be better off going for my original plan of going to a pilot mill getting my CFI certs and applying for teaching jobs that will hopefully get me much more time each month? Although I haven’t asked for the details on pay, but I know my co-worker is on the clock at his minimum wage line service pay rate and gets something like a $50 per flight bonus on top of the wages he clocks, so this isn’t financially much (if at all) better than instructing, and the FBO is too broke to have us work full-time. With the new 1500 hour rule I know that if I go the FBO route it will take forever to build that kind of time, and unless I’m hireable at an airline before the law goes into effect it will take literally years for me to build enough time at that rate. I’m sure someone on this forum will tell me that once I have my CFI I can find students and teach them if I need additional hours, but I’m trying to be realistic and if I stay in my current town it is unlikely to yield much, if any, time. This town is fairly small and there is already a small flight school on the field – two instructors and two planes - and I know they are struggling to find enough students to keep their business afloat.

Thx for reading and I would really appreciate any constructive comments/opinions/advice.

AKASHA

WingsNthings

I can't speak much about your core question of quality vs quantity as it applies to a job interview with the airlines. You will get some good advice from experienced airline guys on here so I will leave it to them. I went the charter/corporate route. And if that was your goal, I would say go for this iffy opportunity with the local 135 gig... because that is exactly how you work your way into that type of flying.

However, that is not your career goal. You want to be an airline pilot. And you also said you would like to instruct. So it seems to me that Plan A is the answer here. Judging by the tone of your post, it seems you would agree. It seems you have been more or less distracted with this sudden and unplanned opportunity. And like I said, if staying local and doing this sort of work was your goal, you'd have to seriously consider it.

The pressure they are putting on you puts a bad taste in my mouth as well. If you want to instruct and be good at it, then there is no sense in rushing through the certification with a local CFI who, as you said, probably is inexperienced at properly training a pilot to be a good instructor. Why does this charter op need to rush you through this before Christmas? I don't like it either.

I would trust your instinct on this. I went to ATP's myself. I was quite satisfied with the training and they even offered me a job upon graduation. Lots of students in and out and lots of time building. It just seems to me that you were on the right track and probably do need to get out of your small town in order to move onto serious time-building. The SIC stuff without the autopilot I would think is valid time in any interview, but you're right about the King Air... what can you do with that except earn a lousy 50 bucks?

I think your intuition tells you Plan A and you appear to have the proper motivation to make it happen. And you also indicate that you would find instructing to be very rewarding and that's important. You can go into the interview with a sincer enthusiasm and I believe they will pick up on that.

Good luck with everything!

WingsNthings

Akasha - Thanks for the reply, and its good to here your opinion on ATPs as well. You’re right about this opportunity kind of being a distraction to what I’ve planned. After working at the FBO and being around 135 charter and 91 business stuff I don’t think it is what I want to do for the rest of my life lol.

As for why they are pushing me to get my CFI so quickly, from what I’ve heard there seems to be some sentiment from the chief pilot here that I am ‘lazy’ because he feels that I have been procrastinating about getting my CFI. Before getting this job, I was attending and working at a flight school that went bankrupt last January, and I simultaneously lost money I had put down on flight time and lost my job. Then I bounced around unemployed looking for a job for a few months before finally ending up here at the FBO, and it has taken me a while to dig myself out of this mess and get to a point where I could put more money into flight training. I guess if working multiple jobs to get my finances in order to finish my education makes me lazy, then I’m guilty lol. I don’t want their pity, just it’s frustrating that they are assuming I’m lazy for not completing CFI when I’m working 50-60 hour weeks to fix a situation that is out of my control. There’s a part of me that would like to prove them wrong hehe.

So the rationale of having me get my CFI so soon is to prove that I’m committed to this and not lazy. I offered to call ATPs and see if I could get my training bumped up to the first thing in January, but the FBO wants it done here, and now I get the impression that they aren’t going to give me the leave of absence from my line service job that they told me a month ago that they would give. So now I won’t have this line service job to fall back on. I guess I don’t understand why it is any skin off their teeth whether I do my training here or somewhere else since they seem kind of ill equipped to do training. It’s not like they have a flight school - they don’t even have a plane for me to use to get my ticket in.

Now I need to decide if I should rush through my CFI for this possibility of getting some, but not a lot, of flight time here at the 135 operation, or give up my current job + any chances of flight time here to go back to school. There’s a part of me that thinks in this economy it would be stupid to give up a job and a possible opportunity to fly, so I’d be willing to stay around here and see how things go, but I’m concerned that doing CFI here would gimp my chances of finding an instructing job elsewhere if I do not end up getting this flying position here, or if I decide I need to move elsewhere to build more time.

WingsNthings

Also, does anyone in here familiar with the CFI hiring atmosphere that has an opinion on if getting my CFI with a local instructor, not connected to any flight school, will work against me if I apply for CFI jobs? Also, is my friend correct in saying that getting my check-ride in a combination of the 152 and complex plane would appear that I was trying to do the bare minimum and therefore also look bad to potential employers? Or would I really be better off going the ATP route? Or is the hiring atmosphere so bad that I should stick it out at the FBO for the sake of not ending up unemployed and looking for a job again?

I would also really appreciate any other opinions/feedback on the quality vs quantity question.

Der Meister

lest just say there are CFI jobs out there but you might not get what you want. I am still with out one for the past 2 years.

2StgTurbine

No one will care or look into how you trained for your CFI, so you do not have to worry about using a 152 and a Cessna RG. Also, you keep saying you do not want to rush your CFI, but ATP will rush your CFI. ATP will get you done in two weeks. It could take two weeks just to get an FAA examiner at the FBO. If you are worried about getting your CFI at an FBO vs. a pilot mill, don't be. Getting your CFI at ATP will only help you if you want to work for ATP. Many threads on that. Expect a minimum 8 hour day 7 days a week for $1500 a month. No one else cares where you get it. There are some places that will like the fact that you went to ATP, and there are others, like the place that I work, that will look down on you with a wet CFI from ATP (Too many bad experiences with recent graduates). The best thing to do is go to the place that feels right for you.

bcrosier

It's been a long time since I got my CFI, but I'll agree with 2stage - no one cares what combo of aircraft you use to get your CFI. I did the bulk of my training in a Cherokee, and the last bit and check ride in an Arrow. I think it only makes sense to do it in a way that saves money.

I think the opportunity to do some of the 135 flying you could do would be a great opportunity, but like others there is something odd about the circumstances here that makes me wary. You're already working for them, and it doesn't sound like they need a CFI there, so I don't understand their pushing you to hurry up and get the CFI with their aircraft. It sounds like they want to get their hands on your money, though that may not be the case.

To me, you work there, they already know who you are - they should be willing to let you move into the 135 ops without putting unreasonable conditions on you or requiring you to effectively "buy your job." I wouldn't have a problem with getting your CFI though them, but it should be on your terms, not theirs (unless they are in immediate need of a CFI).

Like I said - the bottom line to me is something here doesn't seem right.

WmuGrad07

I'd say go to ATP and get your CFI/I/MEI and try to get a job there. You'd get a ton of multi pic time with them and be able to get a job at the airlines faster that way. It sounds to me like they want your money at the fbo and NEED someone to be an SIC for them. Don't let them pressure you into something you don't really want to do.

At the FBO you work at would you also be able to get your II and MEI? It sounds like ATP would be a good option if not. But debt isn't a fun thing to have either. Aviation isn't the easiest thing to get into now a days and there is no right or wrong answers. I never thought I would be where I'm at now, it's not where I want to be. But I'm paying my bills and building time fast. I had an offer to go to the airline that hired me years ago but had to cancel because of my contract... and I make more money flying GA planes for now.

You just have to keep plugging away and try to do your best. Good luck

ugflyer

How about using the FBO's Cirrus for your CFI. I know it doesn't have retractable landing gear but it falls in the category of Technically Advanced Aircraft (TAA). which can be used for initial CFI of commercial even though they do not meet the definition of complex aircraft. Otherwise, good luck on your decision. You will have that time before you know it and in the right seat of a commercial airliner one day.

BroncoBird

First off, good job for taking some time to think this out correctly. It is never good to make a rash or impulsive decision when the result could have a big impact on your life down the road.

As far as the quantity vs. quality question, I'd say do your best to focus on both. It is always good to identify your long term goal, and make informed decisions along the way that will make you the most marketable and qualified for that specific goal. It appears as though you have already identified the airlines as a target track, so that is a good starting point. My suggestion would be to somehow obtain your CFI/I/MEI, start instructing, and take advantage of the 135/91 opportunity. This will allow you to start building important PIC time, as well as get exposure to a wide variety of situations while flying the more complex aircraft in the “real world” IFR system and actual weather.

Let me expand on each. You are correct, that working as a CFI for a while is a widely accepted and respected way of building time. As many have said before, as well as myself, you really start to truly learn when you teach. It is an excellent way to become very strong in the knowledge areas, and somewhat proficient on the hands-on aspect of flying, depending on how much you demo things to your students (which you will see is beneficial for both of you for different reasons). As I mentioned before, a very important thing is that you are building PIC time on every flight, which will begin to look very good on paper. You will become very good at decision making, and any employer, be it airline, corporate, cargo, or whatever will love to see it. It is interesting that in the progression of a pilot’s career, being a PIC will teach you how to become a good SIC, and then being that SIC will teach you new things on how to become a PIC again.

The 135/91 opportunity produces that “quality” time that you are looking for, and definitely should be pursued. This is great because it will help you compensate for the areas in which instructing lacks. You will find that after instructing for a while, you fall victim to the “bubble effect”. By this I mean that you are using the same runways, the same frequencies, talking to the same controllers, flying the same maneuvers, over the same roads and fields, in mostly the same weather conditions, all the time. Once you break out of that bubble, and see the “real world”, it all starts to click. It will make you an even better instructor, because it will allow you to come back to your students, and teach them the same maneuvers and concepts as before, but with a new and fresh outlook based on what you see and learn yourself in the “real world”. Another advantage is the opportunity to fly alongside an experienced pilot, and get some exposure to a crew cockpit environment. Every single airline interview will most likely include some questions on your thoughts or experience with CRM. Flying 135 up in the soup, taking on ice in the winter, dodging storms in the summer, and the occasional system abnormality will undoubtedly give you some good practice at inter-cockpit communication and will give you some material to use to impress your interview panel.

The disclaimer here is to make sure that any SIC time you do log is legit. It can be quite a grey area, so do your homework and read up on the regs. Take into account the particulars of the aircraft, as well as the operating specs of the 135 outfit. You would never want to show up to interview, and have them catch illegitimate flight time in your logbook.
Hope this helps...good luck.