Can I Flight Instruct a 5000 hour pilot?
03-20-2018, 08:38 AM
#21
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 17
Of course I know the reg i'm just saying in reality its his plane, what he says goes. He's a very good pilot, if an emergency were to pop up I doubt he will just sit there and watch me handle it. At the end of the day even though I could be "the sole manipulator of the controls" he has the final authority. I feel like it is kind of a grey area is all.
03-20-2018, 08:43 AM
#22
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 17
So here’s my scenario:
You’re flying an airplane that you have received no (formal factory) Training in, you’re not a Cirrus certified instructor ( which you have no requirement to be but hold on) you log the “dual given” (and PIC) therefore accepting responsibility for the outcome of the flight.
Like I stated earlier, an accident or incident will bring a lot of scrutiny as to who is what and who is doing what on board this airplane.
What does the owners insurance policy say about flight instruction on his airplane ? Min reqs for the instructor?
Min hours? Min Training received?
Sure, whatch out there’s traffic, clean up your steep turn....dual given log it.
Why not.
But there’s a little more to it then just putting a pen to paper.
Here’s what I would recommend you do:
Have a coffee with the owner and be very honest and upfront.
“I really appreciate you taking me up and I would love to log the time but in order to legally do so may I please review your insurance policy and will you allow me to sign your logbook.”
If not then all is good and just enjoy the experience and be grateful he takes you up.
You’re flying an airplane that you have received no (formal factory) Training in, you’re not a Cirrus certified instructor ( which you have no requirement to be but hold on) you log the “dual given” (and PIC) therefore accepting responsibility for the outcome of the flight.
Like I stated earlier, an accident or incident will bring a lot of scrutiny as to who is what and who is doing what on board this airplane.
What does the owners insurance policy say about flight instruction on his airplane ? Min reqs for the instructor?
Min hours? Min Training received?
Sure, whatch out there’s traffic, clean up your steep turn....dual given log it.
Why not.
But there’s a little more to it then just putting a pen to paper.
Here’s what I would recommend you do:
Have a coffee with the owner and be very honest and upfront.
“I really appreciate you taking me up and I would love to log the time but in order to legally do so may I please review your insurance policy and will you allow me to sign your logbook.”
If not then all is good and just enjoy the experience and be grateful he takes you up.
Thank you for being so helpful throughout this post. What do you think about this idea, it's his plane and he always reaches out to me when he wants to go fly. So I could use my commercial pilot privileges. Do you think it's less of a grey area to just log the PIC and no instruction? He is compensating me with flight time and lunch to fly him around...
03-20-2018, 10:08 AM
#25
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,302
No. READ and COMPREHEND, mate. Therein lies your problem. Not only the former, but also the latter.
Even when quoted and bolded for you, apparently it escapes you.
Both are essentials in aviation. Embrace them.
You're clearly slow, so let's try this one more time. See if you can read the fine print:
Even when quoted and bolded for you, apparently it escapes you.
Both are essentials in aviation. Embrace them.
You're clearly slow, so let's try this one more time. See if you can read the fine print:
03-20-2018, 04:59 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,957
Interesting question with a tricky answer.
I think the FAA council has several rulings.
There was one accident investigation of two MEI’s flying together and both logging ME PIC time. One as dual given.
The FAA found them fraudulent as there was no instruction taking place or at least not logged.
With 5000hrs I think you have a hard time proving instruction took place.
Unless you are providing a service such as conducting a Flight review, IPC or a Wings Program flight.
In any case sign his logbook for dual given and what instruction took place.
Make sure his logbook matches yours.
Keep in mind that an incident can occur completely outside of your control. Like a nail on the runway, flat tire and off into the weeds you go.
Who was PIC, who are you, what were you doing in that seat?
The FAA will want to know and so would the insurance company.
Owners can turn on a dime if their toy gets destroyed. And all of a sudden you’re on the hook as you’re the one with the highest rating.
For exactly this reason I would always take the RH seat even as a passenger.
No way I’m getting caught in the backseat during an incident and not being in a position to affect the outcome.
It’s really not worth to risk your career for a handful of hours of “dual given” wink wink....
I think the FAA council has several rulings.
There was one accident investigation of two MEI’s flying together and both logging ME PIC time. One as dual given.
The FAA found them fraudulent as there was no instruction taking place or at least not logged.
With 5000hrs I think you have a hard time proving instruction took place.
Unless you are providing a service such as conducting a Flight review, IPC or a Wings Program flight.
In any case sign his logbook for dual given and what instruction took place.
Make sure his logbook matches yours.
Keep in mind that an incident can occur completely outside of your control. Like a nail on the runway, flat tire and off into the weeds you go.
Who was PIC, who are you, what were you doing in that seat?
The FAA will want to know and so would the insurance company.
Owners can turn on a dime if their toy gets destroyed. And all of a sudden you’re on the hook as you’re the one with the highest rating.
For exactly this reason I would always take the RH seat even as a passenger.
No way I’m getting caught in the backseat during an incident and not being in a position to affect the outcome.
It’s really not worth to risk your career for a handful of hours of “dual given” wink wink....
03-20-2018, 06:05 PM
#29
Expert Jumpseater
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: KC-135
Posts: 101
Pre 9-11:
As a baby CFI, I once had a 5k hr 747 CA for Iranian Air (he alleged) ask to rent our 172 late on a Saturday afternoon. He assumed his verbal resume would count for the checkout and I'd just hand him the keys.
When I informed him our school had a one hour checkout for insurance, he began hurling insults at me in Arabic. You could literally see the veins bulging on his forehead as he screamed. After about five minutes of this, he and his bride left.
I know, "Cool story bro".
Is your 5k hour student interested in doing the Pilot Proficiency flights? Do they even have the Pilot Proficiency program anymore?
As a baby CFI, I once had a 5k hr 747 CA for Iranian Air (he alleged) ask to rent our 172 late on a Saturday afternoon. He assumed his verbal resume would count for the checkout and I'd just hand him the keys.
When I informed him our school had a one hour checkout for insurance, he began hurling insults at me in Arabic. You could literally see the veins bulging on his forehead as he screamed. After about five minutes of this, he and his bride left.
I know, "Cool story bro".
Is your 5k hour student interested in doing the Pilot Proficiency flights? Do they even have the Pilot Proficiency program anymore?
03-22-2018, 08:07 AM
#30
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: First Officer
Posts: 51
Pre 9-11:
As a baby CFI, I once had a 5k hr 747 CA for Iranian Air (he alleged) ask to rent our 172 late on a Saturday afternoon. He assumed his verbal resume would count for the checkout and I'd just hand him the keys.
When I informed him our school had a one hour checkout for insurance, he began hurling insults at me in Arabic. You could literally see the veins bulging on his forehead as he screamed. After about five minutes of this, he and his bride left.
I know, "Cool story bro".
Is your 5k hour student interested in doing the Pilot Proficiency flights? Do they even have the Pilot Proficiency program anymore?
As a baby CFI, I once had a 5k hr 747 CA for Iranian Air (he alleged) ask to rent our 172 late on a Saturday afternoon. He assumed his verbal resume would count for the checkout and I'd just hand him the keys.
When I informed him our school had a one hour checkout for insurance, he began hurling insults at me in Arabic. You could literally see the veins bulging on his forehead as he screamed. After about five minutes of this, he and his bride left.
I know, "Cool story bro".
Is your 5k hour student interested in doing the Pilot Proficiency flights? Do they even have the Pilot Proficiency program anymore?
OP, I used to tell my students to pretend that someone someday will scrutinize your logbook and you should be able to explain and defend every entry. If you can honestly say that the time you're logging is legitimate and legal, then you should be good to go. There really isn't much "grey area".
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