Logging PIC time in 91/135 vs 121
09-12-2019, 07:27 PM
#11
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Almost. Part 135 passenger ops always requires an SIC (135.101), no matter the seats, UNLESS the operator has OPSPEC A015 which allows an autopilot in lieu of SIC AND the aircraft has 9 passenger seats or less. (135.105)
If the aircraft has more than 9 passenger seats, you can’t use A015 and therefore an SIC is always required. 135.99 (b)
My company doesn’t have A015 therefore, under 135, an SIC is required even though we only have 9 passenger seats.
In other words, the regulations require an SIC. The OPSPECS give you relief under A015.
If the aircraft has more than 9 passenger seats, you can’t use A015 and therefore an SIC is always required. 135.99 (b)
My company doesn’t have A015 therefore, under 135, an SIC is required even though we only have 9 passenger seats.
In other words, the regulations require an SIC. The OPSPECS give you relief under A015.
My KA 350 reference though was geared toward Part 91. I recently had to burst a CFI’s bubble telling him his 58 or so hours of SIC time in a KA 300 can’t be logged even though the the owners request an SIC.
09-12-2019, 09:55 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 867
Here’s the thing with logbooks, the FAA and the airline have their own rules. The FAA cares about currency and what you put on an application for something like the ATP. The airlines have their rules, i.e. 91.1 PIC definition. I think we beat this horse in an older 135 thread on 135 SIC. Simply put, the logbook is yours. Also, those 58 hrs are still experience in a commuter category aircraft. Would I include those hours when filling out Airline Apps or 8710? Nope. Would it go in my times on a resume for a King Air job? Definitely. Will it be a talking point at an airline interview? Probably. In round numbers, if the airline requires 1500 hrs and your application has that you have 2000 hrs and your logbook reflects 2500 hrs, you’re accurately presenting your experience based on the airline’s requirements. It *should* be a non-issue.
09-13-2019, 10:57 AM
#13
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Posts: 6,633
AND the PIC has completed a 135.297(g) check.
09-15-2019, 02:01 PM
#15
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If 135 OPS Spec requires an SIC then yes you could log it.
If insurance requires an SIC or the boss wants an SIC or the mailman’s uncles Dr.’s brother in law wants an SIC, etc. you can not log it. Has to be required per regulations. Anything else does not matter including insurance.
If it’s a KA 350 and the PIC does not require an SIC per his Type Rating but the company installs one of the baggage area seats (does not have to be occupied), then an SIC is required (10 pax seats) and can log the time. Or in the standard configuration (9 pax seats), if the autopilot is MEL’d inop then an SIC is required and can log the time (autopilot in lieu of SIC).
If insurance requires an SIC or the boss wants an SIC or the mailman’s uncles Dr.’s brother in law wants an SIC, etc. you can not log it. Has to be required per regulations. Anything else does not matter including insurance.
If it’s a KA 350 and the PIC does not require an SIC per his Type Rating but the company installs one of the baggage area seats (does not have to be occupied), then an SIC is required (10 pax seats) and can log the time. Or in the standard configuration (9 pax seats), if the autopilot is MEL’d inop then an SIC is required and can log the time (autopilot in lieu of SIC).
§135.267 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews.
(a) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time as a member of a one- or two-pilot crew if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—
(1) 500 hours in any calendar quarter.
(2) 800 hours in any two consecutive calendar quarters.
(3) 1,400 hours in any calendar year.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—
(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.
(a) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time as a member of a one- or two-pilot crew if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—
(1) 500 hours in any calendar quarter.
(2) 800 hours in any two consecutive calendar quarters.
(3) 1,400 hours in any calendar year.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—
(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.
09-16-2019, 09:00 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 466
I think in most situations your causation is backwards. Most 135 companies don’t employ and train FOs so they can get an extra 2 hrs a day. But, if they use 2 pilots because they are required to by regulation, then they can use them for the 2 extra hrs a day.
10-04-2019, 08:24 PM
#17
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Position: LJ35 Capt
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PA-28 (Trained and instructed in it)
PIC: 158
Instructor: 312 (not included in PIC)
Dual/Student: 105
Total: 505 (the above totals don't equal this)
When I was an instrument student (already Private pilot), and receiving instruction, I was logging PIC. Which after reading Duncan 2012 LOI, it appears I can do so.
Since this provision was first introduced in 1952, the regulations have expanded the conditions under which a pilot may log PIC time. Under §61.51 (e)(1), a pilot may log PIC time when the pilot (i) is the sole manipulator of the controls of a aircraft for which the pilot is rated (category, class, and type rating, if appropriate ), (ii) is the sole occupant of an aircraft, or (iii) acts as PIC of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
I could easily just total up my Captain time+Solo+CFI time to get what the airlines are looking for, but I wonder what they will think if they look in my logbook and see that the totals at the bottom of the pages don't reflect the numbers I have on my app/resume.
10-04-2019, 11:06 PM
#18
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Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,356
Here is one of my conundrums when filling out airline apps:
PA-28 (Trained and instructed in it)
PIC: 158
Instructor: 312 (not included in PIC)
Dual/Student: 105
Total: 505 (the above totals don't equal this)
When I was an instrument student (already Private pilot), and receiving instruction, I was logging PIC. Which after reading Duncan 2012 LOI, it appears I can do so.
I absolutely want to convey the 100% truth on the time I've ACTUALLY logged. I'm just trying to figure out if the airlines really want me to delete ALL PIC time logged while I was an Instrument, Commercial and CFI student.
I could easily just total up my Captain time+Solo+CFI time to get what the airlines are looking for, but I wonder what they will think if they look in my logbook and see that the totals at the bottom of the pages don't reflect the numbers I have on my app/resume.
PA-28 (Trained and instructed in it)
PIC: 158
Instructor: 312 (not included in PIC)
Dual/Student: 105
Total: 505 (the above totals don't equal this)
When I was an instrument student (already Private pilot), and receiving instruction, I was logging PIC. Which after reading Duncan 2012 LOI, it appears I can do so.
I absolutely want to convey the 100% truth on the time I've ACTUALLY logged. I'm just trying to figure out if the airlines really want me to delete ALL PIC time logged while I was an Instrument, Commercial and CFI student.
I could easily just total up my Captain time+Solo+CFI time to get what the airlines are looking for, but I wonder what they will think if they look in my logbook and see that the totals at the bottom of the pages don't reflect the numbers I have on my app/resume.
10-05-2019, 06:15 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Nov 2017
Position: LJ35 Capt
Posts: 5
What category do you guys log instead of PIC for time like this (instrument student flying with your CFI)? Apparently the FAA (and most 135's) still want to see this time counted as PIC on 8710's so I'm trying to figure out an easy way to total it when needed. "Acting PIC time" with "sole manipulator time"? "Pilot Flying Time," "Student PIC time"?
Thanks for the help!
02-13-2021, 12:06 AM
#20
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Almost. Part 135 passenger ops always requires an SIC (135.101), no matter the seats, UNLESS the operator has OPSPEC A015 which allows an autopilot in lieu of SIC AND the aircraft has 9 passenger seats or less. (135.105)
If the aircraft has more than 9 passenger seats, you can’t use A015 and therefore an SIC is always required. 135.99 (b)
My company doesn’t have A015 therefore, under 135, an SIC is required even though we only have 9 passenger seats.
In other words, the regulations require an SIC. The OPSPECS give you relief under A015.
If the aircraft has more than 9 passenger seats, you can’t use A015 and therefore an SIC is always required. 135.99 (b)
My company doesn’t have A015 therefore, under 135, an SIC is required even though we only have 9 passenger seats.
In other words, the regulations require an SIC. The OPSPECS give you relief under A015.
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