Deserthusker

So you are saying that if the majors reduced minimums and started hiring R-ATPs the unions wouldn’t say anything about it?

Boeing Aviator

Well at United ALPA did worse. Fully endorsed and used as a way to compete our last contract negotiations allowed for involuntarily assigning new hires to captain positions.

While not exactly the same as hiring at R-ATP’s. I view it as worse and would much rather hire at R-ATP mins if they were mentored for years in the right seat and couldn't upgrade for a minimum of five years on the line. instead we have a lot of involuntarily minimally, qualified (I’m being kind) 24-28 year old new hire CA’s

ALPO sold out on safety!

MinRest

R-ATPs are the hiring minimums. What would the union have to say about it? We have hired several R-ATPs...

It is the current state of the industry. Reducing minimums to meet demand is what everyone is doing. Making billboards effectively accusing the pilot group of being poorly training and inexperienced is however completely unique to NJASAP lol.

jtf560

The training is poorly done. It is actually getting worse. They are signing off new hires in the Phenom that have never done a passenger leg. They are not adding anything to the training program to help prepare low experienced pilots for this job. They are throwing them on the line captains that are now getting less and less experience themselves with quick upgrades. This isn't as bad at the airlines since you go to relatively few locations in comparison and since they barely have to deal with passengers and all the other duties that a pilot must do at NetJets. I was a brand new captain at the regional with 500 hour SICs and while it wasn't all peaches and cream, I was able to keep my eye on them for basically all of their duties and make sure things weren't going sideways without my having any that it was happening. That is impossible at NetJets so the training needs to get better, not worse. Also FSI has a harder and harder time hiring and keeping good instructors, not that they seemed to have many in the first place. This also leads to sub standard training.

While we didn't get the contract we wanted, we still secured 52% increases over 6 years. This isnt ideal, but it isn't all that bad at the top of the pay scales. It didn't help the bottom of the scales as much since it is an even percentage for PIC and SIC and 14 years of pay scale rising in an even line, not in big jumps the first few years like the SIC scales at the airlines. This didn't solve the company's problem for paying enough early in the career to capture enough pilots into staying more than a year or 2. It didn't improve working conditions to also keep them. There are still quite large losses every month and still some senior pilots leaving even with the raises. Morale sucks and won't be improving anytime soon. The reason to give us a new contract is to fix things, not let them fester or get worse. The company cheaped out and now they will pay for it one way or another, either by paying more later to fix things or by just running very inefficiency with an angry work force. Honestly, what other union got a big raise when a contract wasn't due? Lots of people like to slam the union for not doing better, but nobody can tell us how to do better. Also it is the unions fault that we get what we get. Not enough do what is needed to secure a better contract. It appears the shaming didn't work and caused a bit of a split, but leadership did at least try to correct that course. I don't know what would have worked to get enough people on board to be willing to work less and give the minimum in order to force better conditions and more money, so I'd love to hear some suggestions for those that like to throw rocks at the leadership. There wouldn't be even what we got without those ads that are damaging to the brand and I won't be surprised to see more to really force some better safety.

yankeepilot42

I bolded the most important part here. The pilot group is its own worst enemy. Not “the Union”. Until the pilot group is willing to do their job and not an iota more, we will never have the pay and QOL that is deserved.

From a management perspective, why pay more when the pilots are fixing the day to day problems. 80% of the pilots I fly with are constantly going above and beyond. Helping a management system that wants nothing to do with the pilot group. I am currently on tour with a high-up Union volunteer that is CONSTANTLY on the phone with Columbus fixing issues and pointing out problems. It makes me sick. Until this changes, until us pilots fly the airplane from point A to point B and nothing else, we won’t be paid for all the other things we do.

Swedepilut

Some of us take pride in the job we do and the product we provide.

We are in the service industry. Our job is to provide safe transport from point A to B AND an excellent service.

Part of that is putting out fires. It's a dynamic business and job. We aren't going to hubs and spokes.

Seems like the high up union volunteer understands that.

rickair7777

Airlines have used similar tactics, personal experience, and some management teams absolutely hate it... you know you're onto something when they send the lanyard police out in force. I think it can help force things to a head, but would need to be carefully crafted, not just a shotgun approach. My shop stalled for years but came to the table pretty quickly after a few months of ads, pickets, and contract-themed uniform bling.

MinRest

I tend to agree. I am not somebody who can do the bare minimum or watch the operation burn down when I can step in and potentially stop or reduce a problem. I think that is our job as pilots. But the egregious extenders, flying broken airplanes, burying heads in the sand on what is really going on with the operation, never fatiguing, always saying yes, having no boundaries, is just as bad as those who write up paint scratches in BFE, are militant anti-company types.

Creating a false economy is bad on both sides of the coin. Management knows the pilot group will say yes, because they always do, and always will. To be respected as a pilot group, the pilot group has to earn it and honestly, NJASAP tarnishes it with their tactics.

MinRest

That happens when the pilot group is unified and the union is calculated and smart about how they go through the negotiating process. Up until all that went down, management had the union and the pilot group wrapped around their fingers. It utterly shocked management when they saw the billboards and it absolutely put them on their butts when they saw the strike vote numbers.

obiden

Mmmk...
"it's not the union"
"it is the union"