yankeepilot42

It will pass. The majority of the Captains I fly with don’t want to lose out on the gains being offered in the near term. The majority of the new FOs I fly with can’t make it financially on the tours with no or low FDP pay so they will vote yes too.

tm602

Forgive me for pooping in my $.02 when you didn't ask me, but things are mighty fine at Luv if you want to consider that in your escape plan.

jtf560

I believe it will probably pass, but it will probably be fairly close. The majority didn't do even the minimum to supply enough support for better. Honestly, the minimum is to just stop caring and do your job with zero extra beyond what the FOM and policy manuals say you have to do.

There is a lot of anger and I doubt it will dissipate whichever way the vote goes. Those who sacrificed will likely continue doing the minimum effort that keeps them employed if this thing passes. The offer does very little to solve most of the problems that management has brought on themselves. My guess is that it won't keep pilots from all seniority levels who were thinking about leaving from stopping their exodus. Some older pilots may back off ledge of bailing out when they run the numbers vs starting over (52.5% over 6 years makes it hard to leave when that is all the time you have left), but many with enough time left will continue to bail out. I guess the best possible case if a yes vote happens is that there is still similar or more attrition and that the majority does just quit being good helpers and the company is forced to come offer improvements once again to keep the metal moving sometime in the next 2 to 3 years.

If we do vote it down, it will be super ugly times. Leadership says it will be nuclear and that management won't offer anything again for a long time. Most of the No voters believe we somehow will have the unity to force something much better quickly. I guess I am somewhere in between. I can't look at myself in the mirror if I vote yes, but I also don't believe the group will really come together to force anything for at least a year and probably much longer of we vote it down. I'm also OK with blowing it up and starting over somewhere else. I guess I have just built up a lot of spite for management and would get a weird thrill out of watching it burn rather than accept what they have offered. I'm quite lazy and don't really want to start over somewhere else, but I do like to play with fire.

60av8tor

Not sure what your pay scale is - the info on the NJ profile here is like code to me - but doesn't look like any FO base pay is much under 70k. You're saying the majority of guys you fly with can't survive on that?

jtf560

This offer is a POS, but to clarify what we currently have, it was 4% last year. This year and next are 2% raises. IF it was extended by management, 2027 is 2% or COLA up to 4% and the last 2 years are 2% or COLA, whichever is less. The Extraordinary payouts would be minimal for newer pilots and likely 20K or less for quite senior pilots and that is only if the angry pilot force isn't busy burning the profits away. Those payments also end after 2 potential payouts if the contract isn't extended and there is already disagreement between the union and company about what money is included in the calculations. I'm voting no, but it is important to know what we have already vs what we have been offered when making the decision.

GeeWizDriver

Pretty good analysis of where the dumpster fire is at present. Pass or fail, the G. A. S. meter will still be on "E" for a large portion of the membership and that doesn't bode well for the future.

It actually seems now as if union leadership is divided. Some are saying "get this now and we'll get more in a year or two" (pipe dream IMO) and others are saying (between the lines) NUKE this POS and send a message they can't ignore. I'm with the latter and I really DON'T think it will be all that long after a NO vote that the company would come back to the table: They are DESPERATE to eliminate the EFPP. That says late summer at worst to me, especially if the operational numbers continue to crater.

At this point, it's getting harder to give a crap either way.

tm602

Its not a mater of "surviving on that". Piloting is a skilled trade. It takes knowledge, experiene and judgement to make fast decisions in changing situations, constant risk assessment, legal rules to follow both on the ground (schedules as an example), operationally (too vast to type here), and the ever present risk of losing not just your job but your entire lifetime career over medical issues that allow anyone else to continue employemnt in the same conditions.
Frac/corporate pilots do waaaaay more than fly. After doing it for over 16 years, I would say that flying was only 20% of my job when I was there. The support that we have at the airlines just isn't there in the bizjet world and so there are many ways to "put your own neck in the noose without help" in the 135/91/91K world.
The penalty for a mistake is ranging from saying from "I'll never do that again" all the way up to and including the death of you, your passengers, and anyone unfortunate enough to be on the grund where you hit. Sometimes it may not even be anything you did (look at the dual engine failure of US1549 and the recent dual engine failure (which is new and still open) in Naples FL. Or the Challenger over the Atlantic that hit wake turbulence from the A380....the pilots are the sole reason anyone survived this.
So before starting class warfare in here, which may or not be your intent, get to know a little more about the subject. I would never want to be in the back of an airplane being flown by someoen "surviving" on their pay. I want well paid, well rested, mentally happy pilots who are not carrying "surviving financially" into the cockpit with them. How about we pay surgeons $70K "to survive on" and we all go get a major surgery done.

60av8tor

Dude... putting WAY too many words in my mouth, but thanks for the diatribe about how much you do, yada, yada. My question had nothing to do with what anyone is worth - hell, I sometimes marvel at what I make, and I don't equate what I do anywhere close to a surgeon, but you do you.

ALL I asked about was if guys were truly unable to live on new hire NJ pay, because that's what the post said - not that they're not worth more. Now go take your anti-anxiety meds

Edit: I assume that there is another guy up front assisting the brand new guy - regardless what he/she is making - who isn't making minimum wage🤷‍♂️

STzBack

LOL! Yeah, some are on edge.

STzBack

No sh!t the leadership is divived. Obviously. But it's more like "the majority of the leadership tends to suggest the YES vote, one guy is for war at all cost". Because all he wants is war and destruction, more than an actual deal".
Your camp has been telling us for 36 months that the company had no choice but to come to the table. You've been endorsing shaming pilots who extended, letting names be published on the MB, you cried for all TRs to resign, you've shamed those who took new TR jobs, you bashed new hires and the younger generation, you've told the world in ads that they were dangerous and lacked experienced, you then bashed the same training that you are a result of saying in public ads that it was dangerous, you used the attrition card before we had attrition, you rushed to the safety card in desperation, you post on the MB to brag when you AOG a plane on a daily basis because "I feel this isn't good, could maintenance have a look at it" and when you call fatigue every time your fart really stinks.you predicted an exodus never seen in history, you predicted a total collapse of the company durting the Holidays, etc, etc, etc. "

Where's the exodus? How's the hiring doing? Holiday season was pretty bad with all the "fatigue" and AOG everytime "I feel this isn't good, could maintenance have a look at it" calls. Result? No melt down as predicted. Depsite all the useful idiots on the MB being very aggressive towards the rest of the group, what happened? NJA had probably the busiest day of its history this weekend. And a succesful one at that. Because the majority of the group is doing the job we are paid for and were hired for. We all read the cba's before we signed, we knew what the pay was, especially those who came here in the past 3 years.

You keep selling job actions for a pipe dream, that incredible no condition deal that keeps on not showing up. Motivation/participation in union actions among the group is at it's lowest. There were no more than 40 people (including family members) who were going to show up at the Vegas SB picket.

As far as the EFPP as I have said many times before, whenever it is paid in 2025, it's peanuts money for 70% of the group. Surely not the hill I'll lose men for and definitely not worth sacrificing a 51% base pay increase for (not counting increase in FDP, 401K, last day OT, increase in compesation for check-airmen/training captains, etc).

So, vote No for nothing but endless war and arrive in 2029 looking back at the 6 years of potential money lost? No thanks, I would rather be comfortable when I arrive at the next fight.

I will wait for the details and the fine prints as soon as they release that to us and we will see.