Last Last Best Final or Last Best Final Final
12-07-2023, 08:59 AM
#141
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Position: Just a pilot
Posts: 762
Now I have to ask, is your 15 yrs as management or flight crew? You sound like management to me. You emit a very strong odor of it by your firerce defense of a guy who is pretty obviously a stooge or management himself (or herself I'm no sexist).
Giving you the beenfit of the doubt that you really are a pilot, have you learned anything in those 15 years?
With 17 yrs of 135/91/91K, 6 yrs 121, and about 8 as a CFI, I have seen enough of this aviation world to back up everything I say from experience, not wishes.
Therein lies the problem with many of you guys banging the gong over and over....you hate to learn. Anyone who course-corrects you is the enemy. Think just a bit. Maybe, just MAYBE we know some things you don't, and are actually doing you some good by trying to get you to think without your emotions.
Like Pervis said, Twinkie The Kid was real and he was something else....and let's not forget the manaement guy who hacked into the union boards and the ensuing lawsuit. IF you have a shred of trust in the company's honesty or ehtics, you are living in dreamland.
Not my problem now, I don't work there anymore and I'm SO glad for that. But for those who remain, they don't need guys like you or StzBack undercutting their efforts.
I wasted enough time on you. GeeWiz and some of the others know what they are talking about. You can cover your ears and scream all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they know more than you about this whole aviation mess. So I'll just say buh-bye and say that I hope the NJA pilots get what has long been coming to them...I can't imagine why you don't want better working conditions and a raise.
Last edited by tm602; 12-07-2023 at 09:15 AM.
12-08-2023, 11:24 PM
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Upright
Posts: 605
You guys decide....
Company 11‐9‐2023 Proposal
1. Section 27
• Base Wage Increases:
o 23% on Dec. 21, 2023
o 6% on Dec. 21, 2024
o 4% on Dec. 21, 2025
o 4% on Dec. 21, 2026
o 4% on Dec. 21, 2027
o 4% on Dec. 21, 2028
• Wage Scale adjusted to 14 years for all fleets and ranks.
• Tour‐Based Flight Pay Rate Increases:
o $190 effective DOR
o $200 effective January 1, 2024
o $202 effective January 1, 2025
o $204 effective January 1, 2026
o $206 effective January 1, 2027
o $208 effective January 1, 2028
o $210 effective January 1, 2029
o 2% annual increase each year beginning January 1, 2030
• NFAD Category Additions and Rate Increase:
o NFAD hourly rate of $50.00 increases to $51.00 effective January 1, 2024.
o New Beginning‐of‐Day NFAD category as previously proposed 9‐19‐2023.
o New “Flight Asset Duty 1+ Hour” NFAD category as proposed 10‐5‐2023—applicable
to hours of Flight Asset Duty greater than 1 hour in a duty day and paid at the NFAD
rate multiplied by .33. Subject to following rules:
If a crewmember is briefed for a Flight Assignment under subsection
28.3(A)(1) or a Travel Duty assignment the crewmember must complete the
Flight Assignment or Travel Duty assignment.
A crewmember must be available for duty the entire duty period.
o New “Hotel 5+ Hour Reserve Duty” NFAD category as proposed 10‐5‐2023—
applicable to hours of Reserve Duty at hotel greater than 5 hours in a duty day and
paid at the NFAD rate multiplied by .2. Subject to the following rules:
If a crewmember is briefed for a Flight Assignment under subsection
28.3(A)(1) or a Travel Duty assignment the crewmember must complete the
Flight Assignment or Travel Duty assignment.
A crewmember must be available for duty the entire duty period.
o Per 27.2(I), when more than one NFAD category is applicable, the crewmember shall
receive the greater of the types—but not more than one type of NFAD for the same
period.
• SDP Compensation as previously proposed to include:
o increased base premium of $20k up to $26k depending on schedule type.
o additional Tour‐Based Flight Pay factor for hours in a tour in excess of 10 Flight
Hours of $50 for CA and $75 for EA‐Do flat fee per check ride of $500 or $750 per check ride when an EA‐D completes a
check on a CA.
2. One Time Compensation Bonus
• Upon ratification, each crewmember to receive a gross payment equal to the greater of the
following two options:
o $15,000.00
o $150.00 per Month of Seniority, capped at $30,000.00.
3. Section 28
• 28.3(A)(1)(a)—all flight duty start times modified to 60 minutes.
• 28.3(A)(1)(b)—all flight duty end times modified to 30 minutes.
• 28.5(F)(1)—Company proposed duty shut off rule for Unscheduled Rest Periods:
o Unless otherwise provided for in the Agreement, a crewmember who requests an
Unscheduled Rest Period pursuant to this subsection may elect, but will not be
required, to remain on duty if the request is made after completing twelve (12)
hours of duty.
Unless otherwise provided for in the Agreement, a crewmember who requests an
Unscheduled Rest Period pursuant to this subsection prior to completing twelve
(12) hours of duty may elect, but will not be required, to perform more than twelve
hours of duty.
• Any other items as previously proposed on 9‐19‐2023.
4. Section 19
• CC 52 schedule remains as is in current book.
• 19.4(B)—days off after Transition, Initial New Equipment, and Requalification Training
changes to a minimum of 7 days.
• No Seam Tour Adjustment Program.
• Any other items as previously proposed on 9‐19‐2023.
5. Section 30
• Contract term that runs through Dec. 21, 2029.
• No options to extend the term beyond Dec. 21, 2029.
• EFPP eliminated.
• Any other items as previously proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
6.Section 6
• 6.8(A)—Conflate TR Captain position into one CA SDP. Establish Evaluator Aircraft Delegate
(EA‐D) SDP.
• EA‐D position will first be offered to current CA in seniority order—holding the position
subject to successful completion of any FAA required training/evaluation. Any remaining
EA‐D vacancies shall be filled pursuant to 6.8(B).
• As part of implementation of the elimination of the TR Captain position, Current TR Captains
will be offered CA positions—holding the CA position is subject to successful completion of
any FAA required training/evaluations.• 6.6 Retreat Rights—remove ability to retreat during IOE.
• Any other items as previously proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
7.Section 15
• Section 15.7 New Fleets—Company to conduct seniority‐based bid within 180 days of first
New Fleet Aircraft being placed on Company operating certificate or upon placement of the
7th New Fleet Aircraft on certificate—whichever occurs first.
• Sections 15.6— Company will release equipment locks prior to filling vacancies under 15.6
through involuntary assignment or with a new crewmember. However, any equipment
locked crewmember awarded a First Officer vacancy in another fleet is subject to the greater
of their remaining existing equipment lock or a new 24‐month equipment lock—and the
crewmember may not upgrade in‐fleet or in another fleet until the lock expires.
8.Section 4
• Eliminate NRFO SDP position.
• Modify NRFO related manuals, eliminate certain NRFOs, recategorize remaining NRFOs into
two groups: Group 1 any crewmember off IOE can complete; and Group 2 both
crewmembers must be NRFO trained and have one year in the fleet.
• A crewmember who completes (i.e., the crewmember must remain available for duty for the
entire NRFO assignment) a NRFO assignment will be guaranteed a Flight Hour Credit per LOA
27‐010. If the crewmember flies during the same duty day and his Flight Hours as described
in 27.2(G) for the duty day exceed the Flight Hour credit, then his Flight Hours calculated as
described in 27.2(G) will be used instead of the Flight Hour credit.
• Company may use OEM pilots or OEM contract pilots for NRFO flights.
• The parties to agree on transition through implementation letter.
9. Section 10
• No change to current book PTO accrual rates, except for new 7‐day advance accrual for new
hires.
• No change to current book PTO usage rates.
• No change to current book personal day bidding limits for Peak Season (5%) and Non‐Peak
Season (10%).
• No change to current book cash out rates for Overflow PTO Days in subsection 10.6(B).
• Retirement/Resignation cash out limited to Active Bank Days only (no Overflow or Long‐
Term).
• Any other items as proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
10.Section 16
• New Parental Leave Policy:
o Up to 6 months of time off for pregnant crewmember (in addition to applicable
medical leave), and to include two weeks of paid time.
o Up to 3 months for crewmember whose spouse or domestic partner gives birth
or a crewmember who adopts, and to include two weeks of paid time.
• No change to 3‐year limit for LTD/Loss of Medical.
• No expansion of Medical Leave of Absence provisions in subsection 16.3(A).• Any other items as proposed 4‐21‐2023.
11.Section 20
• Crew Meal LOA 20‐002 to be executed as part of TA.
• No change to current book rates for Meal Allowance or Crew Meal Deviations.
• Any other items as proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
12.Section 24
• No change to current book subsection 24.3(A) life insurance coverage amount.
• No change to lesser of 60% or $5,000 per month for LTD/Loss of Medical Benefit.
• No change to current book subsection 24.7(B) regarding Company payment of medical
expenses and incidentals.
• No change to current book severance payment rate or other current book language in
subsection 24.15(C).
• No Worker’s Compensation and Disability Benefits provision.
• Benefits Committee not added to Section 17 committees.
• Any other items as proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
13.Section 29
• Company 401(k) Matching Contributions increased as follows:
o 60% effective January 1, 2023 (current book)
o 65% effective January 1, 2024
o 66% effective January 1, 2025
o 67% effective January 1, 2026
o 68% effective January 1, 2027
o 69% effective January 1, 2028
o 70% effective January 1, 2029
• No addition of any type of defined/direct contribution program.
• Any other items proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
14.Remaining Sections/Items:
• Section 9—as previously agreed.
• Section 13—as previously agreed.
• Section 14—as previously agreed.
Company 11‐9‐2023 Proposal
1. Section 27
• Base Wage Increases:
o 23% on Dec. 21, 2023
o 6% on Dec. 21, 2024
o 4% on Dec. 21, 2025
o 4% on Dec. 21, 2026
o 4% on Dec. 21, 2027
o 4% on Dec. 21, 2028
• Wage Scale adjusted to 14 years for all fleets and ranks.
• Tour‐Based Flight Pay Rate Increases:
o $190 effective DOR
o $200 effective January 1, 2024
o $202 effective January 1, 2025
o $204 effective January 1, 2026
o $206 effective January 1, 2027
o $208 effective January 1, 2028
o $210 effective January 1, 2029
o 2% annual increase each year beginning January 1, 2030
• NFAD Category Additions and Rate Increase:
o NFAD hourly rate of $50.00 increases to $51.00 effective January 1, 2024.
o New Beginning‐of‐Day NFAD category as previously proposed 9‐19‐2023.
o New “Flight Asset Duty 1+ Hour” NFAD category as proposed 10‐5‐2023—applicable
to hours of Flight Asset Duty greater than 1 hour in a duty day and paid at the NFAD
rate multiplied by .33. Subject to following rules:
If a crewmember is briefed for a Flight Assignment under subsection
28.3(A)(1) or a Travel Duty assignment the crewmember must complete the
Flight Assignment or Travel Duty assignment.
A crewmember must be available for duty the entire duty period.
o New “Hotel 5+ Hour Reserve Duty” NFAD category as proposed 10‐5‐2023—
applicable to hours of Reserve Duty at hotel greater than 5 hours in a duty day and
paid at the NFAD rate multiplied by .2. Subject to the following rules:
If a crewmember is briefed for a Flight Assignment under subsection
28.3(A)(1) or a Travel Duty assignment the crewmember must complete the
Flight Assignment or Travel Duty assignment.
A crewmember must be available for duty the entire duty period.
o Per 27.2(I), when more than one NFAD category is applicable, the crewmember shall
receive the greater of the types—but not more than one type of NFAD for the same
period.
• SDP Compensation as previously proposed to include:
o increased base premium of $20k up to $26k depending on schedule type.
o additional Tour‐Based Flight Pay factor for hours in a tour in excess of 10 Flight
Hours of $50 for CA and $75 for EA‐Do flat fee per check ride of $500 or $750 per check ride when an EA‐D completes a
check on a CA.
2. One Time Compensation Bonus
• Upon ratification, each crewmember to receive a gross payment equal to the greater of the
following two options:
o $15,000.00
o $150.00 per Month of Seniority, capped at $30,000.00.
3. Section 28
• 28.3(A)(1)(a)—all flight duty start times modified to 60 minutes.
• 28.3(A)(1)(b)—all flight duty end times modified to 30 minutes.
• 28.5(F)(1)—Company proposed duty shut off rule for Unscheduled Rest Periods:
o Unless otherwise provided for in the Agreement, a crewmember who requests an
Unscheduled Rest Period pursuant to this subsection may elect, but will not be
required, to remain on duty if the request is made after completing twelve (12)
hours of duty.
Unless otherwise provided for in the Agreement, a crewmember who requests an
Unscheduled Rest Period pursuant to this subsection prior to completing twelve
(12) hours of duty may elect, but will not be required, to perform more than twelve
hours of duty.
• Any other items as previously proposed on 9‐19‐2023.
4. Section 19
• CC 52 schedule remains as is in current book.
• 19.4(B)—days off after Transition, Initial New Equipment, and Requalification Training
changes to a minimum of 7 days.
• No Seam Tour Adjustment Program.
• Any other items as previously proposed on 9‐19‐2023.
5. Section 30
• Contract term that runs through Dec. 21, 2029.
• No options to extend the term beyond Dec. 21, 2029.
• EFPP eliminated.
• Any other items as previously proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
6.Section 6
• 6.8(A)—Conflate TR Captain position into one CA SDP. Establish Evaluator Aircraft Delegate
(EA‐D) SDP.
• EA‐D position will first be offered to current CA in seniority order—holding the position
subject to successful completion of any FAA required training/evaluation. Any remaining
EA‐D vacancies shall be filled pursuant to 6.8(B).
• As part of implementation of the elimination of the TR Captain position, Current TR Captains
will be offered CA positions—holding the CA position is subject to successful completion of
any FAA required training/evaluations.• 6.6 Retreat Rights—remove ability to retreat during IOE.
• Any other items as previously proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
7.Section 15
• Section 15.7 New Fleets—Company to conduct seniority‐based bid within 180 days of first
New Fleet Aircraft being placed on Company operating certificate or upon placement of the
7th New Fleet Aircraft on certificate—whichever occurs first.
• Sections 15.6— Company will release equipment locks prior to filling vacancies under 15.6
through involuntary assignment or with a new crewmember. However, any equipment
locked crewmember awarded a First Officer vacancy in another fleet is subject to the greater
of their remaining existing equipment lock or a new 24‐month equipment lock—and the
crewmember may not upgrade in‐fleet or in another fleet until the lock expires.
8.Section 4
• Eliminate NRFO SDP position.
• Modify NRFO related manuals, eliminate certain NRFOs, recategorize remaining NRFOs into
two groups: Group 1 any crewmember off IOE can complete; and Group 2 both
crewmembers must be NRFO trained and have one year in the fleet.
• A crewmember who completes (i.e., the crewmember must remain available for duty for the
entire NRFO assignment) a NRFO assignment will be guaranteed a Flight Hour Credit per LOA
27‐010. If the crewmember flies during the same duty day and his Flight Hours as described
in 27.2(G) for the duty day exceed the Flight Hour credit, then his Flight Hours calculated as
described in 27.2(G) will be used instead of the Flight Hour credit.
• Company may use OEM pilots or OEM contract pilots for NRFO flights.
• The parties to agree on transition through implementation letter.
9. Section 10
• No change to current book PTO accrual rates, except for new 7‐day advance accrual for new
hires.
• No change to current book PTO usage rates.
• No change to current book personal day bidding limits for Peak Season (5%) and Non‐Peak
Season (10%).
• No change to current book cash out rates for Overflow PTO Days in subsection 10.6(B).
• Retirement/Resignation cash out limited to Active Bank Days only (no Overflow or Long‐
Term).
• Any other items as proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
10.Section 16
• New Parental Leave Policy:
o Up to 6 months of time off for pregnant crewmember (in addition to applicable
medical leave), and to include two weeks of paid time.
o Up to 3 months for crewmember whose spouse or domestic partner gives birth
or a crewmember who adopts, and to include two weeks of paid time.
• No change to 3‐year limit for LTD/Loss of Medical.
• No expansion of Medical Leave of Absence provisions in subsection 16.3(A).• Any other items as proposed 4‐21‐2023.
11.Section 20
• Crew Meal LOA 20‐002 to be executed as part of TA.
• No change to current book rates for Meal Allowance or Crew Meal Deviations.
• Any other items as proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
12.Section 24
• No change to current book subsection 24.3(A) life insurance coverage amount.
• No change to lesser of 60% or $5,000 per month for LTD/Loss of Medical Benefit.
• No change to current book subsection 24.7(B) regarding Company payment of medical
expenses and incidentals.
• No change to current book severance payment rate or other current book language in
subsection 24.15(C).
• No Worker’s Compensation and Disability Benefits provision.
• Benefits Committee not added to Section 17 committees.
• Any other items as proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
13.Section 29
• Company 401(k) Matching Contributions increased as follows:
o 60% effective January 1, 2023 (current book)
o 65% effective January 1, 2024
o 66% effective January 1, 2025
o 67% effective January 1, 2026
o 68% effective January 1, 2027
o 69% effective January 1, 2028
o 70% effective January 1, 2029
• No addition of any type of defined/direct contribution program.
• Any other items proposed on 4‐21‐2023.
14.Remaining Sections/Items:
• Section 9—as previously agreed.
• Section 13—as previously agreed.
• Section 14—as previously agreed.
That's 100% good for me. EFPP is useless. NRFO changes and signing bonus are very good.
What should be in bold is that this would be for now until 2026-2029. Why not take the personal quality of life increase for the same period that our contract is valid and fight again, under legal allowed conditions (section 6) in 2026-2029??
What should be in bold is that this would be for now until 2026-2029. Why not take the personal quality of life increase for the same period that our contract is valid and fight again, under legal allowed conditions (section 6) in 2026-2029??
The NRFO changes and signing bonus are hot garbage. The SDP stipend could have been worked out at any time over the last few years but the company places zero value in any of those positions. The signing bonus is the exact same as it has been since 2015, if not longer. It's laughable, as is the $15K minimum for every pilot on the property. Another poster already mentioned the company vote buying scheme, and that is entirely accurate.
I don’t get the fixation on the NRFO deal. There simply isn’t enough NRFO flights to justify turning down such a pay increase to keep NRFO while it only benefits so little people.
The EFPP deal, don’t know enough to comment. Maybe someone can expand on this? Regardless, this was a major economic offer with no further extension and now left with nothing because Pedro and his gang deemed it was not good enough. Shame on him and his posse.
The EFPP deal, don’t know enough to comment. Maybe someone can expand on this? Regardless, this was a major economic offer with no further extension and now left with nothing because Pedro and his gang deemed it was not good enough. Shame on him and his posse.
"Pedro and his gang" aren't the only ones who deemed this proposal wasn't good enough. Save for some pilots leaving the property who would like to pad their bank accounts via the joke of a signing bonus, no one who considers this place a career carrier wants that POS.
You may head on back to your cubicle now. You tried. Have a Twinkie as a reward.
12-09-2023, 10:18 AM
#143
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Position: A320
Posts: 8
Great post
Everyone knows what was in the LBFU. I have yet to meet anyone on the road who thinks it's worth the paper it is written on.
What makes you think Section 6 is going to work any differently than what is occuring now?
The NRFO changes and signing bonus are hot garbage. The SDP stipend could have been worked out at any time over the last few years but the company places zero value in any of those positions. The signing bonus is the exact same as it has been since 2015, if not longer. It's laughable, as is the $15K minimum for every pilot on the property. Another poster already mentioned the company vote buying scheme, and that is entirely accurate.
When you let the fox into the henhouse he's going to eat however many chickens he wants. OEM pilots with absolutely routinely fly our aircraft if we give you, oops, management that scope relief. That's clearly the plan.
You clearly have no idea what the definition of a NRFO flight is, how many occur, how they occur, the planning required behind them, the risk assessment required by the current CBA, etc...
"Pedro and his gang" aren't the only ones who deemed this proposal wasn't good enough. Save for some pilots leaving the property who would like to pad their bank accounts via the joke of a signing bonus, no one who considers this place a career carrier wants that POS.
You may head on back to your cubicle now. You tried. Have a Twinkie as a reward.
What makes you think Section 6 is going to work any differently than what is occuring now?
The NRFO changes and signing bonus are hot garbage. The SDP stipend could have been worked out at any time over the last few years but the company places zero value in any of those positions. The signing bonus is the exact same as it has been since 2015, if not longer. It's laughable, as is the $15K minimum for every pilot on the property. Another poster already mentioned the company vote buying scheme, and that is entirely accurate.
When you let the fox into the henhouse he's going to eat however many chickens he wants. OEM pilots with absolutely routinely fly our aircraft if we give you, oops, management that scope relief. That's clearly the plan.
You clearly have no idea what the definition of a NRFO flight is, how many occur, how they occur, the planning required behind them, the risk assessment required by the current CBA, etc...
"Pedro and his gang" aren't the only ones who deemed this proposal wasn't good enough. Save for some pilots leaving the property who would like to pad their bank accounts via the joke of a signing bonus, no one who considers this place a career carrier wants that POS.
You may head on back to your cubicle now. You tried. Have a Twinkie as a reward.
Excellent post!
I recently left after 21+ years and I never had any intention of leaving until I realized they have no plan to pay for skill and experience.
I hope this doesn’t turn out badly for my brothers and sisters still at NJ.
it seems they are absolutely clueless of the opportunities now for professionals in our industry. It is a very different land scape from the days of past where they can do what they are trying to do now with their short sighted take it or leave it mindset.
I left in August and at least every other week I have one of my friends reach out to me asking about the reality of walking away…
There are good and bad to both sides of the 121 vs NJ world but, there are sub 18 month upgrades at every Legacy carrier right now which makes it pretty easy to make up for initial lost pay. Not to mention, I really won’t be far off at month 13 as an FO vs my 21 year Captain pay. Not including the 17% 401K DC from AA makes it over and above what my income was at NJ. FWIW
I’ll finish my last 10 years at American and commuting 🥴.
I sincerely hope you guys get what you deserve, I know all too well how demanding and challenging that job can be.
I have been quietly watching this thread for some time now and it is very apparent which posters are attempting to spread FUD.. and some inexperienced others that may or may not be unknowingly doing the same.
Keep up the fight!! You are worth it!!
Cheers
TW
12-10-2023, 08:23 PM
#144
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 88
TW,
Thanks for the well wishes. It's obvious you have spent some time on the line at NJ.
It's just as obvious that others have not spent much time (if any) flying the line.
Good luck sir!
In the end, the fact that a 21 yr Capt left for the airlines should tell you all you need to know about working for NJ.
Thanks for the well wishes. It's obvious you have spent some time on the line at NJ.
It's just as obvious that others have not spent much time (if any) flying the line.
Good luck sir!
In the end, the fact that a 21 yr Capt left for the airlines should tell you all you need to know about working for NJ.
12-11-2023, 07:33 AM
#145
Speed, Power, Accuracy
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: PIC
Posts: 1,723
TW,
Thanks for the well wishes. It's obvious you have spent some time on the line at NJ.
It's just as obvious that others have not spent much time (if any) flying the line.
Good luck sir!
In the end, the fact that a 21 yr Capt left for the airlines should tell you all you need to know about working for NJ.
Thanks for the well wishes. It's obvious you have spent some time on the line at NJ.
It's just as obvious that others have not spent much time (if any) flying the line.
Good luck sir!
In the end, the fact that a 21 yr Capt left for the airlines should tell you all you need to know about working for NJ.
Stand by for the usual retort: "Then why haven't YOU already left." Short answer? We're too old, applied to the airlines when you needed a lunar orbit and two space shuttle landings to get hired, and had horrible career timing. Take advantage of our battle scars and do yourself a big f'ing favor: GET OUT.
12-12-2023, 07:58 AM
#146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Position: Just a pilot
Posts: 762
Excellent post!
I recently left after 21+ years and I never had any intention of leaving until I realized they have no plan to pay for skill and experience.
I hope this doesn’t turn out badly for my brothers and sisters still at NJ.
it seems they are absolutely clueless of the opportunities now for professionals in our industry. It is a very different land scape from the days of past where they can do what they are trying to do now with their short sighted take it or leave it mindset.
I left in August and at least every other week I have one of my friends reach out to me asking about the reality of walking away…
There are good and bad to both sides of the 121 vs NJ world but, there are sub 18 month upgrades at every Legacy carrier right now which makes it pretty easy to make up for initial lost pay. Not to mention, I really won’t be far off at month 13 as an FO vs my 21 year Captain pay. Not including the 17% 401K DC from AA makes it over and above what my income was at NJ. FWIW
I’ll finish my last 10 years at American and commuting 🥴.
I sincerely hope you guys get what you deserve, I know all too well how demanding and challenging that job can be.
I have been quietly watching this thread for some time now and it is very apparent which posters are attempting to spread FUD.. and some inexperienced others that may or may not be unknowingly doing the same.
Keep up the fight!! You are worth it!!
Cheers
TW
I recently left after 21+ years and I never had any intention of leaving until I realized they have no plan to pay for skill and experience.
I hope this doesn’t turn out badly for my brothers and sisters still at NJ.
it seems they are absolutely clueless of the opportunities now for professionals in our industry. It is a very different land scape from the days of past where they can do what they are trying to do now with their short sighted take it or leave it mindset.
I left in August and at least every other week I have one of my friends reach out to me asking about the reality of walking away…
There are good and bad to both sides of the 121 vs NJ world but, there are sub 18 month upgrades at every Legacy carrier right now which makes it pretty easy to make up for initial lost pay. Not to mention, I really won’t be far off at month 13 as an FO vs my 21 year Captain pay. Not including the 17% 401K DC from AA makes it over and above what my income was at NJ. FWIW
I’ll finish my last 10 years at American and commuting 🥴.
I sincerely hope you guys get what you deserve, I know all too well how demanding and challenging that job can be.
I have been quietly watching this thread for some time now and it is very apparent which posters are attempting to spread FUD.. and some inexperienced others that may or may not be unknowingly doing the same.
Keep up the fight!! You are worth it!!
Cheers
TW
12-12-2023, 08:04 AM
#147
Mmmm wine
Joined APC: Feb 2020
Position: The Jet
Posts: 1,067
Don't be so sure. You may find yourself not commuting for long unless you live pretty far from a base. Over here at LUV the movement is FAST to get bases. I did one month in OAK, one in Vegas and then right into PHX. Bidding 54% senioroty in base after only 18 months. Leaving NutJets, in my mid 50s, after 17 years, was my best career decision. I hope the ones that stay at NJA get what they are worth.
12-12-2023, 08:40 AM
#148
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 923
I love this deserve bullcrap. You only get what you negotiate. And even then companies wipe their rears with the agreements as we saw in the lost decade.
The pilot group deserves exactly what they have by allowing a leadership group to dangle some puny money in front of them and taking the bait, giving the company exactly what they wanted for very little and now under full control until the end of the decade. That was simply nuts. Had the pilot group remained steadfast and waited for full section 6 they would not be in this complete mess. The public campaign has obviously done very little to influence anything, the EB looks less credibly everyday. NJ is a good mid tier job, good benefits, decent retirement, etc, better than many aviation jobs. The pilots at NJ have zero control over his flying, just his work days (and then even limited), unlike the airlines. By changing the compensation to incentivize flying tired, hungry, carrying write ups, they screwed up royally.
Most of the current problems have been self inflicted, along with a string of company senior managers that have been greedy and evil. Not that he was a saint, but after Santuli left employee relations have gone to ****, exacerbated by the pilot group.
The pilot group deserves exactly what they have by allowing a leadership group to dangle some puny money in front of them and taking the bait, giving the company exactly what they wanted for very little and now under full control until the end of the decade. That was simply nuts. Had the pilot group remained steadfast and waited for full section 6 they would not be in this complete mess. The public campaign has obviously done very little to influence anything, the EB looks less credibly everyday. NJ is a good mid tier job, good benefits, decent retirement, etc, better than many aviation jobs. The pilots at NJ have zero control over his flying, just his work days (and then even limited), unlike the airlines. By changing the compensation to incentivize flying tired, hungry, carrying write ups, they screwed up royally.
Most of the current problems have been self inflicted, along with a string of company senior managers that have been greedy and evil. Not that he was a saint, but after Santuli left employee relations have gone to ****, exacerbated by the pilot group.
12-12-2023, 09:01 AM
#149
Mmmm wine
Joined APC: Feb 2020
Position: The Jet
Posts: 1,067
Yep, agreed.
My comment was more that they should be paid better for the job they are doing, but you are right. You only get what you negotiate and the pilot group is living the ramifications of what they have agreed upon.
My comment was more that they should be paid better for the job they are doing, but you are right. You only get what you negotiate and the pilot group is living the ramifications of what they have agreed upon.
12-12-2023, 10:11 AM
#150
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Position: Just a pilot
Posts: 762
I love this deserve bullcrap. You only get what you negotiate. And even then companies wipe their rears with the agreements as we saw in the lost decade.
The pilot group deserves exactly what they have by allowing a leadership group to dangle some puny money in front of them and taking the bait, giving the company exactly what they wanted for very little and now under full control until the end of the decade. That was simply nuts. Had the pilot group remained steadfast and waited for full section 6 they would not be in this complete mess. The public campaign has obviously done very little to influence anything, the EB looks less credibly everyday. NJ is a good mid tier job, good benefits, decent retirement, etc, better than many aviation jobs. The pilots at NJ have zero control over his flying, just his work days (and then even limited), unlike the airlines. By changing the compensation to incentivize flying tired, hungry, carrying write ups, they screwed up royally.
Most of the current problems have been self inflicted, along with a string of company senior managers that have been greedy and evil. Not that he was a saint, but after Santuli left employee relations have gone to ****, exacerbated by the pilot group.
The pilot group deserves exactly what they have by allowing a leadership group to dangle some puny money in front of them and taking the bait, giving the company exactly what they wanted for very little and now under full control until the end of the decade. That was simply nuts. Had the pilot group remained steadfast and waited for full section 6 they would not be in this complete mess. The public campaign has obviously done very little to influence anything, the EB looks less credibly everyday. NJ is a good mid tier job, good benefits, decent retirement, etc, better than many aviation jobs. The pilots at NJ have zero control over his flying, just his work days (and then even limited), unlike the airlines. By changing the compensation to incentivize flying tired, hungry, carrying write ups, they screwed up royally.
Most of the current problems have been self inflicted, along with a string of company senior managers that have been greedy and evil. Not that he was a saint, but after Santuli left employee relations have gone to ****, exacerbated by the pilot group.
Like you said, Santulli wasn't an angel, but he shot straight and the company was his baby. The last 3 CEOs, just not the same.
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