JetRage

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Listen I don't like political discussions. This isn't the place for it anyway. I'm not a victim to circumstance or a guy that throws up his hands and says "all is lost". But I come from a line of folks who have fought for this country through the air, land and sea and it just seems to me that this is as big a threat as ever. Someone please tell me why it's not.

Also, I'm afraid that after a lost decade in aviation our hopes of a turn around could be dashed by this.

No politics. Don't want the mods to become angry.

N2264J

Our debt to GNP ratio is around 1:1. People routinely surpass that when they buy a house and no one accuses them of being broke.

The debt is an issue but it's not the issue.

We need a strong government to step up and stimulate job creation to increase our
tax revenue base because wealthy people don't want to pay taxes. You see, the rich just aren't that patriotic.

.

Beaver Hunter

Why again do people who work hard and are successful have to pay more. That's not fair or right.
The tax takers act as though it is some sort of birthright. Theirs to take and mine to give. No more taxes. The government has plenty of money.

jungle

Many of us are math cripples, the actual debt is far greater due to the accounting methods used:

The U.S. government is obligated under current law to mandatory payments for programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) projects that payouts for these programs will significantly exceed tax revenues over the next 75 years. The Medicare Part A (hospital insurance) payouts already exceed program tax revenues, and social security payouts exceeded payroll taxes in fiscal 2010. These deficits require funding from other tax sources or borrowing.[34] The present value of these deficits or unfunded obligations is an estimated $45.8 trillion. This is the amount that would have had to be set aside in 2009 in order to pay for the unfunded obligations which, under current law, will have to be raised by the government in the future. Approximately $7.7 trillion relates to Social Security, while $38.2 trillion relates to Medicare and Medicaid. In other words, health care programs will require nearly five times more funding than Social Security. Adding this to the national debt and other federal obligations would bring total obligations to nearly $62 trillion.[35] However, these unfunded obligations are not counted in the national debt


It is widely held that the GAO has underestimated this debt by a factor of 3-5 times. Thus the real debt is much closer to 200 trillion.

That house you bought just consumed every bit of your income for the next 75 years.


Anyone can easily look up who actually pays taxes in the US, and if you want to call that patriotic, it is ok.

The top 10% pay about 70% of the Federal tax burden, the bottom 50% less than 3% of the total. Perhaps patriotism should be redefined?

http://taxfoundation.org/article/sum...ome-tax-data-0


Over the next few weeks the city of Detroit is going to provide us with an excellent example of how this sort of accounting works.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Take a close look at the bottom right hand line, each taxpayer in the US is now 1.1 million in debt. How many of us can write a check to cover that?

N2264J

Baloney. This old CATO Institute chestnut is meant to frighten the serfs. "Unfunded obligation" assumes no tax revenues at all. And by the way, Social Security is
prohibited by law from adding to the debt.

The rich hide their money off shore so they don't have to pay tax to the country that allowed and helped them to prosper
The rich move jobs overseas wrecking our middle class & economy
The rich won't send their children to fight the wars they themselves champion and
The rich won't think twice about destroying our habitat

The rich just aren't that patriotic.


Here's a video about how the wealth is distributed.

Wealth Inequality in America - YouTube

Notice that the bottom 50% aren't paying any taxes because they aren't making any money.

.

KC10 FATboy

^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Unbelievable. You are living in a delusional state my friend. I say that with the upmost respect.

As a former military member, I do believe our nation's debt is the single most important long-term danger to our country! Not only is our nation in debt on the federal level, we are also in debt in most states, counties, cities, and households. Our savings rate as a nation is near record lows. The recent uptick in the savings rate was due to the lending markets drying up. But don't worry, Americans are back to spending more than they make.

As Jungle mentioned, we have promised too much to too many people and our chickens are coming home to roost. It is a mathematical certainty. EXCEPT --- The reason why the government gets away with slippery accounting methods (methods that would get you, me, or any business thrown in jail for) is because benefits do not qualify as liabilities because Congress can change the terms of Medicare and Social Security at any time.

Let me repeat that ... Congress can change the terms of Medicare and Social Security at any time.

So when we get to the point that we can no longer support the costs that we (our government) promised, they will change the rules and leave those Americans who were depending on these social systems on their own.

This problem could be fixed very easily (not overnight) if we started an aggressive financial education campaign in this country. Imagine if we made or paid people to do the following. If we did, people could retire with dignity in this country and we wouldn't be in the mess that we're in today.

Let me tell you about the tale of Ben and Arthur.

Ben and Arthur were friends who grew up together. They both knew that they needed to start thinking about the future. At age 19, Ben decided to invest $2,000 every year for eight years. He picked investment funds that averaged a 12% interest rate. Then, at age 26, Ben stopped putting money into his investments. So he put a total of $16,000 into his investment funds.

Now Arthur didn’t start investing until age 27. Just like Ben, he put $2,000 into his investment funds every year until he turned 65. He got the same 12% interest rate as Ben, but he invested 23 more years than Ben did. So Arthur invested a total of $78,000 over 39 years.
When both Ben and Arthur turned 65, they decided to compare their investment accounts. Who do you think had more? Ben, with his total of $16,000 invested over eight years, or Arthur, who invested $78,000 over 39 years?

The result.



If you are not saving for your own retirement and medical for when you retire, you are making a life long huge mistake! The government can not and will not be able to afford to cover everyone with dignity.

N2264J

Where is Ben getting 12% interest?

KC10 FATboy

Please get financially educated. Your diatribe about the rich not paying enough is sickening and pathetic. Even if we stole all of the rich's money AND all of the Fortune 500's profit, we wouldn't have enough to pay for what has been promised. Seriously.

There are plenty of mutual funds that have historically, over multiple decades, averaged 12%. Even if I am wrong by 50%, Ben is still a millionaire.

You are part of the problem with this country. We show you how to become financially secure. The information is free. We've brought you to the water but you refuse to drink. 9 out of 10 millionaires in this country started off with nothing. They are not "old money." They applied conservative financial principles and put their money to work.

You live in the most prosperous and most opportunistic country in the world and you complain that someone else isn't paying enough. Absolute rubbish.

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money," the late Margaret Thatcher. This is exactly where Detroit finds itself. And soon, if we do not change our ways, ALL of America will be in Detroit's situation.

Why can you not understand this?

KC10 FATboy

The sad part is, those who prepared and planned for a financial doomsday will survive. It will be the ignorant and poor who were relying on the government to protect them who will suffer the most. This is a preventable problem, but so many in our government on all sides, including those who will be injured the most, refuse to address this problem. We keep letting distractions such as gay marriage, stupid wars, abortion etc.etc. get in the way of what's really important. Those issues don't matter after the economy and our financial institutions collapse as there will be no money, no jobs, no economy.

jungle

You still can't read?

" The Government Accountability Office (GAO) projects that payouts for these programs will significantly exceed tax revenues over the next 75 years."

The GAO has proven itself to be consistent in one area, it always underestimates actual cost of these programs. SS/ Medicaid/Care and Military are the three largest outlays in the budget-in that order.

You see the rich(now defined by you as anyone making more than median income) as the enemy, but they are the ones contributing the most to both this country and the economy. The great bulk of them hardworking self-made upper middle class americans.

I do understand that most need someone else to blame for their problems.

I must give you credit for one correct statement, although for the wrong reason. Nobody is making 12% on their money because the FED has held interest rates well below market value for over a decade and in conjunction with the treasury printing 85 billion in new debt every month have thus robbed the economy and savers of tens of trillions and reduced the value of the dollar and the US credit rating in the process.

We are very much like Detroit, enjoy the show. We all love a good fairey tale and you are chock full of them kiddo.