ATR35

The currency is an interesting issue. Can they force you to maintain it? I'll answer it this way, when can they force you to show up? Drill weekend, an activation, annual tour. You show up at those times then currency becomes their problem. It's their job to get you current if you're present for those mandatory days. I tested that one myself and within 90 days my paperwork to go to the IRR was signed.

Lurking

had an interesting call on this issue yesterday 1. officers take eight months to get through SAF anyway and because they are SAF approved they trump the AFRC policy 2. involuntary was not supposed to be included, wasn't in the past, won't be in the future those are being worked on a case by case basis.

rickair7777

They actually cannot force you to attend drills or annual training. The DoD tripped over it's crank on that decades ago. They carefully set up the system to isolate the government from any responsibility for a reservist who was not in a duty status, but the courts turned the tables on them and determined that's a two-way street...a reservist who's NOT in a duty status is not subject to the UCMJ at all and cannot be forced to attend "limited" active duty status training events (ie drill, AT).

There can be consequences for not attending...bad evals, loss of bennies, ADSEP. They can even INVOL recall you to AD to fulfill your service obligation and the Navy actually did this to non-drillers years ago (incentive to attend drill). But they cannot actually punish you for actions or inactions (such as not coming to drill) you take while in a civilian status.

Sea lawyer nitpicking, I know but if you're a short-timer you really only have to attend 40 drills + 12 days each calendar year. Can they keep you current with that? Especially since YOU get to pick the no-show drills with no advance notice?

Lurking

In the Air Force reserve you can only be involuntarily called to AT and you are required to received 30 days notice pursuant to 10 USC 12301(b) as implemented by AFI 36-2254v1 para 5.10

pony172

AFRC doesn't have the power to do the following, but remember the ANG is based on states having the hammer. If someone doesn't show up to a drill, our state UCMJ has the power to have the State Police show up at a members house and bring them to drill. The Guard is full of Cops and Firefighters who have no problem making this happen. Never actually saw it done, but it did provide some major incentive to someone once who decided not to participate any more and leave a giant credit card bill unpaid. Yanking his TS and putting a nasty note in the adjudicators file prevented him from ever getting a contractor job overseas. Which served as an even better punishment. Lots of ways to skin that cat. The path of least resistance is usually to just show up, nod your head, salute, and leave. Mission accomplished. The mole that sticks his head up is usually the one that gets whacked.

Albief15

One thing I will throw out is if you do raise your right hand and say "I will" then it does seem to me regardless of the legal mumbo jumbo you have a job to do. I always liked being in the "militia". It let me train the killers to protect us, provided some extra income, and every now and then do a local drill vice flying off to the other side of the country.

Of course--I had to strap 50,000 pounds of metal and gas to my ass and ran the risk of getting killed every day in training, but looking back I seem to recall that as being a lot more fun and enjoyable than scary. It was also what I had been doing the decade prior and thought was pretty cool.

Its been almost ten years since my last sorite, and I know there has been a lot of really, really stupid **** that permeated the military since I left adding to the stack that was already there. That said, if we are down to the point where guys are taking ANG slots....regardless of airframes....and then looking at legalese as to whether or not they have to work or stay current I sort of wonder why they are there in the first place. The Guard was a home, a great job, an insurance policy, and a resource that let me chase my dream without putting my family's future at risk. It let me work with some of the finest and most capable people I ever served with both in and out of the cockpit. I would not be a captain at FedEx, nor have been able to start our family business if the ANG had not been there to facilitate the transition from active duty to civilian life over about 6 six years. Generally speaking, I don't remember thinking "how can I get out of this gig" or "how do I extract more money from this.." while I was in but rather a feeling of "wow...how cool it is I get to do a couple of jobs that I love?".

I'm not here to lecture or shame anyone. What I do see and hear on these boards and on a FB group I watch are echoes of the 97-99 conversations I heard like "...get out at 18 years and you will still come out ahead..." and "....I don't want to fool with the ANG/Reserves...heck its a pay cut after year 2 at my airline..." Any of us--and there are a ton of us on the boards--that witnessed the 9/11 fallout and lost decade of airline earnings can tell you that for many families it was the Guard and Reserve that saved homes, families, and sanity during a very tumultuous time. Several of my airline buddies from those days never went back and are still serving as O-6s. A few gutted it out and secured an active duty retirement before returning. Others in other units strung orders after orders to take care of their family, and did numerous deployments to bad places or cycled through a TX course or two as their units changed jets and missions. I was lucky--I stayed TG the whole time and did fine at my airline, because I "missed the boat" to DAL, UAL, and AA's late 90s hiring surge. But I never forgot how NONE, and is ZERO, as (on UHF and VHF GUARD) not ONE ****ING PILOT in our detachment went without orders or a job when they lost their airline gig. I never forgot that.

So--when it was time to fill out queepy online training, or listen to another non-tactical required briefing...or when the squadron needed a guy to come in and pull SOF on a weekend to cover the active duty guys...or wanted one pilot to give up a week of flying to pull RTO in Eielson during a 2 week Cope Thunder/RF North...I did it. I gave up sorties to fly comm air to some TDYs, and did Red Air whenever asked with nary a whimper. I did it because I knew A) I was lucky to have this job and B) I had it better than 99.9% of the bros I was working with and around. I was so profoundly grateful to be there I wanted it to show. And over six years I flew about 500 more hours in the F-15, and did great TDYs to Key West, Las Vegas, Great Falls, Mt Home, Anchorage, and a host of good cross countries too. More important, however, was the realization that I was working with a team that had my back. I felt a sense of security and mutual respect that I never felt present in the active duty...a sense of "...if you do your job well and be faithful, you never have to worry about your future..." Having seen pilot after pilot get wedged, placed, or fitted into a full time billet somewhere in the system allowing them to not only survive but thrive after a furlough creates a sense of loyalty that I hope most of you never have to ops test.

The two guys who hired me--one is now in ATL and a retired O-7, the other is in my old hometown where he still works as a sim IP--both know that if they needed anything--today--9 years after I retired I'd be on the way tomorrow. That is how much I appreciated the job, and how important is was to me then and even now.

Tanker-driver

Albie, all good points as usual. But remember, we are talking about guys that already have paperwork in to retire/separate, and are being forced to stay. Kind of goes against the whole "all volunteer" concept no?

Albief15

Yeah...obviously a different game.

I still have to lean with the "you sort of knew the rules when you signed up..." mindset. I detest the way stop loss has been used to work around bungled force planning and poor decisions. I get the frustration.

Is this really putting guys over in the ME for rotations or is it just delaying some admin outprocessing?

I help guys and gals get UPT slots each year with the ANG. One of the things we discuss is "...you know, they can schedule a war...." Its sort of the same thing when we come off active duty. Of course we hope we are just happy airline bubbas enjoying a part time gig. I remember in 2002, however, chatting with some Marine Reserve F-18 guys about setting up some DACT. They weren't really interested...besides....they were the last guys to get called up if there was any shooting. Another friend TX'd to the F-16 in Andrews a few years earlier. He was well into his FedEx career. All those guys spent 2003 dropping iron over Iraq.
Obviously--that was war, not manning buffoonery. I get it. But if you want the flight pay, the per diem, and those sexy speed jeans....well...sometimes we end up paying for it.

No way am I trying to stand up for poor decisions. I just thought that for MANY of us...a few extra months in our particular ANG gig wouldn't have been the end of the world. I guess I didn't have a huge faith in the loyalty of the Air Force, but I did believe strongly that the ANG unit was always there for me. Thus--if I needed to return the favor--they had earned it. My experience may have been someone unique. That said, had they rolled me into a couple year extension--even out of the cockpit at SEADS/AOC, I would done it. I might not have enjoyed it as much as when it was my choice, but after getting sent to war on the ground with the Army and then getting a B-course commitment raised to 5 years when I went to the F-15, then getting stop lossed off active duty, I sort of got used to those MFs moving the cheese. The ANG never did that...they laid out their expectations and you did your thing. I appreciated that every day I was in. But--again--not judging anyone--that was years ago and I didn't get jerked around like these guys are today.

Tanker-driver

As far as I know, no one sent downrange because of this.....yet. However, there is a fairly good sized mob on the horizon, and while its outside the time period covered by the loss management memo, once names are sent to AFCENT, you're on the hook. Therefore, one could end up stuck much longer than Nov 1. I have faith that my Sq leadership will try their best to insulate people, but all it would take is for AFCENT to request more bodies. I have ZERO faith that anyone above the rank of LtC has the balls to say no to what have become ever-mounting requirements. You put things into perspective well Albie, but many of us have spent too much time burning up JP8 with little to nothing to show for it and no end in sight. Many of us were active duty in a prior life and have seen enough sand to last a lifetime. Add the disjointed policies that no one with any power seems to have any trouble supporting and I'm sorry but my give a **** factor has dropped to just about zero. The ironic thing is that I fully realize and regret the fact that my lack of buy-in may rub off on our younger and more impressionable members. Hence my attempt to remove myself from that dynamic. It's unfortunate that the people who will be charged with the very big job of un-f@(&ing our air force are surrounded by burnt out, bitter field grade officers.

rickair7777

Albie, like I said, sea-lawyering for sure but it's kind of chicken-poop for the AF to expect to force-retain part-time volunteers in a part-time status.

If it's a national emergency, fine, mobilize whoever you need. Anybody who has obligated service remaining of course needs to do their time. But if it's AFRC trying to make their readiness numbers look good...well they should have managed that better, it's pretty predictable especially in the reserves.