UPT: PIC, SIC, or something else?
12-03-2015, 03:00 PM
#11
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12-03-2015, 06:24 PM
#12
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: 757/767 FO
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So when you are the AC and the other guy is flying, you log secondary time. I think almost every airline app out there counts that as PIC. They are just different. You have figure out a way to reconcile the USAF #s with what you put on an app because it's always confusing. Just be able to explain what you did and you should be fine.
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12-03-2015, 06:48 PM
#13
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Honest question...
In the 37/38 was there a seat that had to be occupied or could you fly solo from either seat?
I ask because in the T-34 the front seat had to be occupied. Soloing from the back seat was prohibited as the main circuit breaker panel and manual gear extension (and some other stuff) was only in the front seat.
So to play devil's advocate...if you are occupying the seat that is required but did not sign for the plane, are you SIC?
In the 37/38 was there a seat that had to be occupied or could you fly solo from either seat?
I ask because in the T-34 the front seat had to be occupied. Soloing from the back seat was prohibited as the main circuit breaker panel and manual gear extension (and some other stuff) was only in the front seat.
So to play devil's advocate...if you are occupying the seat that is required but did not sign for the plane, are you SIC?
T-38: only the front.
The Tweet could probably be soloed from either; just a matter of policy, I think (been 33 years since I flew it).
T-38: cg/weight and balance, plus, there are critical components in the front that aren't in the back, such as Battery and Gen switches, fuel crossfeed, cabin temp, pitot heat, alternate gear extension....
And, you can't shutdown the engines from the backseat at the end of the flight!
12-03-2015, 07:49 PM
#14
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To the OP, you can't log SIC in a plane certified for single pilot ops.
12-03-2015, 08:46 PM
#15
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There is no such thing a "second in command" in the T-37 or T-38 in ATC/AETC.
It is Dual or Student time, except for your solos, which are PIC.
On PilotCredentials, a couple airlines specifically say to include UPT time as SIC, but that is just how those airlines want to see it documented on their applications.
It is Dual or Student time, except for your solos, which are PIC.
On PilotCredentials, a couple airlines specifically say to include UPT time as SIC, but that is just how those airlines want to see it documented on their applications.
^^^
Exactly. If you try to make your logbook (written or electronic) match a particular airline's policy and the FARs at the same time, you'll end up in a perpetual luff berry. Trying to incorporate USAF regs into the mix as well will probably result in some kind of space time rift.
Logbook is governed by FARs.
Flight records by military OIs.
Airline apps by airline du jour.
Don't cross the streams.
Exactly. If you try to make your logbook (written or electronic) match a particular airline's policy and the FARs at the same time, you'll end up in a perpetual luff berry. Trying to incorporate USAF regs into the mix as well will probably result in some kind of space time rift.
Logbook is governed by FARs.
Flight records by military OIs.
Airline apps by airline du jour.
Don't cross the streams.
Do what the online application tells you to do. Otherwise, be conservative and follow Hacker's advice. Also, Adler has it right, you're going to go nuts trying to make your logs match every airline's particulars.
If you have any questions, private message me.
12-04-2015, 02:29 PM
#16
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As a T-38 IP, when I flew with another T-38 IP, I would log half of the time as Instructor, and half as Primary.
There are a few other examples where the AC wouldn't log Secondary, too.
12-04-2015, 10:21 PM
#17
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Sounds shady.
But that's the USAF flying time situation.
12-04-2015, 11:33 PM
#18
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This coming from someone who logs "flying time" starting when they release brakes, and including the 1 hour sitting on the ramp at zero knots in the conga line?
Spare me.
12-05-2015, 03:59 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Nov 2014
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That's exactly it. Both listed as IPs and both provide training/instruction to each other. How hard is that to believe? How will an IP ever hone his skills without getting variety from other IPs? Many a young FAIP learned valuable lessons from flying with the old timers.
It's valid on all fronts. Happy Saturday.
12-05-2015, 05:31 AM
#20
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That's the legal definition of flight time per the FAA.
Can you provide USAF guidance for how you log your time? The last thing you want to do is present a log book to a guy that knows the regs better than you do. Don't step into a hole you might have to dig yourself out of.
FAA Definition
FAA Regulations (14 CFR 1.1) defines flight time as “block time” as follows:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or
(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.
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