Restricted ATP for NFOs?
01-15-2019, 07:54 AM
#121
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,241
And to all the guys I ever flew with, the Ejection selector was ALWAYS on aft initiate, no matter what you briefed. I never intended to eject from a flyable aircraft, or leave you alone in an unflyable one.
01-15-2019, 10:03 AM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
When the USAF started flying the F-4 there was no requirement to even have a back-seater. We used to send out cross -country flights all the time with a single pilot. So, in ordinary bombing training on the range and ACM training over the Gulf of Mexico, if the back-seater (which were initially all rated USAF pilots) was not receiving instruction and not manipulating the controls (which he had in the back) he could not log any pilot time? Is that what some of you people are saying?
As far as a second pilot qual'ed in the aircraft - when I rode backseat in 'B' or 'D' model Hornets with another instructor up front - I logged CP time.
01-15-2019, 11:25 AM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 4,026
§61.160 Aeronautical experience—airplane category restricted privileges.
(a) Except for a person who has been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency or because of a disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, a U.S. military pilot or former U.S. military pilot may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate concurrently with an airplane type rating with a minimum of 750 hours of total time as a pilot if the pilot presents:
(1) An official Form DD-214 (Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) indicating that the person was honorably discharged from the U.S. Armed Forces or an official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the pilot is currently serving in the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(2) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person graduated from a U.S. Armed Forces undergraduate pilot training school and received a rating qualification as a military pilot.
(a) Except for a person who has been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency or because of a disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, a U.S. military pilot or former U.S. military pilot may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate concurrently with an airplane type rating with a minimum of 750 hours of total time as a pilot if the pilot presents:
(1) An official Form DD-214 (Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) indicating that the person was honorably discharged from the U.S. Armed Forces or an official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the pilot is currently serving in the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(2) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person graduated from a U.S. Armed Forces undergraduate pilot training school and received a rating qualification as a military pilot.
01-16-2019, 04:07 AM
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 281
My question was that if a USAF F-4 pilot backseater flew on a mission and did not touch the controls but did his RIO bit and was not undergoing flight instruction of any sort some here say he could not log ANY pilot time as the F-4, at that time (early 70s), was often flown with only a pilot up front and the rear seat empty, i.e. no SIC was required so no SIC time could be logged. That would seem to indicate that an awful lot of F-4 backseaters who made it to the airlines shouldn't have been hired because most of their back-seat F-4 time shouldn't have been considered. I think the argument is bat**** but that is my understanding of some comments here.
01-16-2019, 04:25 AM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
My question was that if a USAF F-4 pilot backseater flew on a mission and did not touch the controls but did his RIO bit and was not undergoing flight instruction of any sort some here say he could not log ANY pilot time as the F-4, at that time (early 70s), was often flown with only a pilot up front and the rear seat empty, i.e. no SIC was required so no SIC time could be logged. That would seem to indicate that an awful lot of F-4 backseaters who made it to the airlines shouldn't have been hired because most of their back-seat F-4 time shouldn't have been considered. I think the argument is bat**** but that is my understanding of some comments here.
That is why I mentioned that a backseater was required (so I was told) in the F-4S model at least due to the requirement for the particular emergency.
Then I gave an example of an IP (fully qualified pilot) riding in the backseat of a B/D Hornet (your same example) and how we DID log that time as co-pilot) by the 90s.
Peacock - Did those NFOs who were second pilots go through any commercial training (FSI, CAE, etc...) for the C-12 or was all training done inhouse?
01-16-2019, 02:32 PM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2017
Posts: 659
Understood.
That is why I mentioned that a backseater was required (so I was told) in the F-4S model at least due to the requirement for the particular emergency.
Then I gave an example of an IP (fully qualified pilot) riding in the backseat of a B/D Hornet (your same example) and how we DID log that time as co-pilot) by the 90s.
Peacock - Did those NFOs who were second pilots go through any commercial training (FSI, CAE, etc...) for the C-12 or was all training done inhouse?
That is why I mentioned that a backseater was required (so I was told) in the F-4S model at least due to the requirement for the particular emergency.
Then I gave an example of an IP (fully qualified pilot) riding in the backseat of a B/D Hornet (your same example) and how we DID log that time as co-pilot) by the 90s.
Peacock - Did those NFOs who were second pilots go through any commercial training (FSI, CAE, etc...) for the C-12 or was all training done inhouse?
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