Restricted ATP for NFOs?
01-12-2019, 06:30 PM
#111
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,389
Resurrecting an old thread for some informative discussion points.
First thing to note, I’m a former Navy NFO turned pilot. I did fly a Navy aircraft in which the TCDS required two pilots. The NATOPS lists the NFO as a required crew member with a co-pilot checkride and refers to the NFO as an SIC. Training took place with FSI and training program mirrors FAR 61.55 for a SIC. And the PIC was not Navy either but instead a civilian contractor!
Here’s another thing that’ll get many panties in a bunch...a few of us NFO pilot types got type ratings added too!
To my original point, after seeing FE’s get credit for 500 hours towards their R-ATP I’d like to start talking to the right people, getting some support, and seeing if I might be able to help out the NFO/WSO in the same manner as a military FE. I sure would have liked the credit!
First thing to note, I’m a former Navy NFO turned pilot. I did fly a Navy aircraft in which the TCDS required two pilots. The NATOPS lists the NFO as a required crew member with a co-pilot checkride and refers to the NFO as an SIC. Training took place with FSI and training program mirrors FAR 61.55 for a SIC. And the PIC was not Navy either but instead a civilian contractor!
Here’s another thing that’ll get many panties in a bunch...a few of us NFO pilot types got type ratings added too!
To my original point, after seeing FE’s get credit for 500 hours towards their R-ATP I’d like to start talking to the right people, getting some support, and seeing if I might be able to help out the NFO/WSO in the same manner as a military FE. I sure would have liked the credit!
When regionals accept helo drivers with low FW time, if they struggle (not all do) it's with basic airplane maneuvers and landings.
01-12-2019, 06:34 PM
#112
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 3
Sorry, I didn’t mean to be cryptic. I was referring to the T-39. My time there goes back over 15 years but I believe they may have finally retired that aircraft.
As I read through this entire thread, and for the record, I never claimed any of my time in the aircraft but I do know several who have and never had a problem, it is a strange spot. As far as I know, its the only Navy aircraft that TCDS requires two pilots that uses an NFO in the right seat.
So to answer those who look down their noses at NFO’s, no, that aircraft cannot go flying without another guy in the right seat be it another contractor or gasp, a qualed NFO.
Again though, not my intention here. I’m just doing some research and reading to see if I can find the driving factor in get FE’s a leg up and who/why/how it was done. In my old ass age, it gives me something to do.
01-12-2019, 07:34 PM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 310
Might have something to do with FE being a required position in old civilian airliners and the position (Second Officer) where Airline Pilots started in?
01-12-2019, 09:16 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 747 Captain (Ret,)
Posts: 807
I just want to point out that, back in the dawn of time, USAF F-4s and F111s utilized two pilots instead of a pilot and nav/wso. These pilots would log co-pilot time.
Note: I am not saying that this alone makes it OK for a nav to log flight time in these aircraft.
What would, I believe make it OK to log flight time would be if the PIC is an FAA rated instructor, (and preferably a military rated instructor also), and the nav has a civil multiengine certificate and logs the time as student pilot, and all appropriate logs are properly filled out by the instructor.
Joe
Note: I am not saying that this alone makes it OK for a nav to log flight time in these aircraft.
What would, I believe make it OK to log flight time would be if the PIC is an FAA rated instructor, (and preferably a military rated instructor also), and the nav has a civil multiengine certificate and logs the time as student pilot, and all appropriate logs are properly filled out by the instructor.
Joe
01-13-2019, 02:01 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2017
Posts: 659
Sorry, I didn’t mean to be cryptic. I was referring to the T-39. My time there goes back over 15 years but I believe they may have finally retired that aircraft.
As I read through this entire thread, and for the record, I never claimed any of my time in the aircraft but I do know several who have and never had a problem, it is a strange spot. As far as I know, its the only Navy aircraft that TCDS requires two pilots that uses an NFO in the right seat.
So to answer those who look down their noses at NFO’s, no, that aircraft cannot go flying without another guy in the right seat be it another contractor or gasp, a qualed NFO.
Again though, not my intention here. I’m just doing some research and reading to see if I can find the driving factor in get FE’s a leg up and who/why/how it was done. In my old ass age, it gives me something to do.
As I read through this entire thread, and for the record, I never claimed any of my time in the aircraft but I do know several who have and never had a problem, it is a strange spot. As far as I know, its the only Navy aircraft that TCDS requires two pilots that uses an NFO in the right seat.
So to answer those who look down their noses at NFO’s, no, that aircraft cannot go flying without another guy in the right seat be it another contractor or gasp, a qualed NFO.
Again though, not my intention here. I’m just doing some research and reading to see if I can find the driving factor in get FE’s a leg up and who/why/how it was done. In my old ass age, it gives me something to do.
01-13-2019, 04:41 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
I'm still having trouble with the type rating from FSI.
I'll have to look into it a little further, but from what I have seen of the big P142 schools with people that have shown up to get an rating, you wouldn't have had the requirements to complete the paperwork. I see Peacock answered what I was thinking. Special Crew Time. Hummmmm....interesting.
I'll have to look into it a little further, but from what I have seen of the big P142 schools with people that have shown up to get an rating, you wouldn't have had the requirements to complete the paperwork. I see Peacock answered what I was thinking. Special Crew Time. Hummmmm....interesting.
01-15-2019, 06:46 AM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 281
When the USAF started flying the F-4 there was no requirement to even have a back-seater. We used to send out cross -country flights all the time with a single pilot. So, in ordinary bombing training on the range and ACM training over the Gulf of Mexico, if the back-seater (which were initially all rated USAF pilots) was not receiving instruction and not manipulating the controls (which he had in the back) he could not log any pilot time? Is that what some of you people are saying?
01-15-2019, 07:17 AM
#119
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 12
Similar to the Original Posters question...
Would the Restricted ATP (given to military trainined pilots at 750 hours vice 1500 hours) be given to someone who trained in the military but never got their wings? I went to flight school with the Navy back in 2015 and flew the T-6 then flew the TH-57 in advance. I did my best but still couldn't make it through. I'm currently finishing up my IFR rating at a local flight school while serving the remainder of my time. I am looking to make it to the airlines someday. I'm pretty sure the restricted ATP requirements only apply to winged aviators but I just want to be sure since I have about 175hrs flying in the navy. Either way I will be moving forward with an airline career. Thanks in advance.
Would the Restricted ATP (given to military trainined pilots at 750 hours vice 1500 hours) be given to someone who trained in the military but never got their wings? I went to flight school with the Navy back in 2015 and flew the T-6 then flew the TH-57 in advance. I did my best but still couldn't make it through. I'm currently finishing up my IFR rating at a local flight school while serving the remainder of my time. I am looking to make it to the airlines someday. I'm pretty sure the restricted ATP requirements only apply to winged aviators but I just want to be sure since I have about 175hrs flying in the navy. Either way I will be moving forward with an airline career. Thanks in advance.
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