tankerdude

I'm a tanker pilot by way of the reserves. so one would say I chose that plane... a regional pilot doing poorly in UPT means nothing with regard to an aviation degree. I am saying that an aviation degree is what I credit for my success.

UAL T38 Phlyer

Your post is based on one guy (you) in a 54-week experience.

I've been doing this for 15 years, with more than 400 students. I can't tell you how many students I've had with aviation degrees from big-name schools that did no better, and in some cases worse, than their no-time counterparts.

WARich supports this claim, too, from the T-6 side.

I've had regional FOs as students who struggled, with 2000+ hours.

I had an RJ Captain a few years back who was very good, but he had 4600 hours when he started UPT. !! By the way, he did NOT have an aviation degree. But, even he screwed up. I remember in particular him trying to turn the wrong-way to enter holding at Tinker...

I have a major-airline FO right now (Guard student) who could not land the T-38 on more than 1 out of 5 passes his first week in the airplane. You could see it in his face: "Man, I can't believe I can't land this thing, with all the experience I have..."

My most recent graduating class had a student with CFI-II ratings from a big-name Florida school, and he himself would tell you "If I knew now, what I didn't know then, I would not have wasted the money." He told me he learned more from me in one month, than he did in four years at that school.

Ghetto, finish your aviation associates, and if you want, pursue the aviation degree. As others have posted, I would get a degree in something else--don't put all your eggs in one basket. The fallback, Tankerdude, is the unforeseen such as "My unit got BRAC'd," or "I lost my medical," or "I lost my medical because I was hit by a drunk driver."

What I am strongly discouraging is going in debt up to your eyeballs to get a series of civilian ratings through those schools that frankly, are not very good.

At least, not for UPT.

I had 160 hours of single-engine time when I started. It helped...for the first month. As an IP, I generally have the best luck with guys in the 100-300 hour range.

USMCFLYR

And I'll support this from the Naval Aviation side with 7.5 years instructing in a MWS. Near the end of my time we had an experienced former civilian pilot go through the Hornet FRS. He didn't struggle in any phase of training. He also ended up ranked in the middle of the pack with the guys he finished with. Not the top performer in Strike, not the top performer in Fighter Weapons, and not top hook at the boat. The guy in his class that achieved two out of the three was a guy with NO prior experience in flying. His first flight hour was FFAM 102 (or what it was called when I went through) in T-34Cs.

Thousands of hours flying from Point A to Point B is very different than most things in Fighter/Attack aviation.
WARich mentioned form and such (an this is in Primary Flight Training). I'm one of those with a few hundred flight hours (all training except for CFI/II/MEI) and I found certain aspects of Primary easy. I was scared of being in the air or talking on the radio for example. I'd done some aerobatic training prior, etc..., but flying in formation was a whole new experience. Eventually flying formation aerobatics in T-2Cs was something none of us, prior flight experience or not, had done. The gun pattern, low levels, bombing/rocket/ and strafing runs, air-to-air and eventually the boat were ALL so far removed from what anyone had flown in the civilian world that it just didn't matter. Matter of fact - the guy that did the absolute BEST that I know of was a former A-6 BN.

I told people that asked that an equivalent of a Familiarization/Basic Instrument flying with maybe a little aerobatics mixed in was enough of an introduction to see if you have aptitude and desire to pursue at least one pipeline and to give you a little background in all of Primary to excel in the training. Absolutely no need to have all your ratings or spend more money on more time.

I was at the top of that range , but I'm sure you weren't one of my IPs!

WARich

Though, I did have 1, count it 1, stud a year or so ago who was going to a 130 guard unit come through that had probably 800-1000 hrs CFII/MEI plus helicopters. He was about hyperventilating during the brief prior to our dollar ride, I literally had to tell him to relax and to breath. Once we we're in the MOA and he took it he figured it out real quickly and was having a blast. Long story short, the dude didn't rely on his prior experience, the guy was studying his butt off and literally once he figured out the pitch picture for landing and after about his 3rd ride I seriously asked if we could PA him and solo him out. He knew the pattern, and all the local procedures and could land the aircraft. Of course flying an instrument sortie with him was like flying with another IP. But keep in mind this is the only dude I've encountered with prior experience that excelled to this point. Normally it really doesn't help that much beyond a little basic aircraft control.

tankerdude

t38, I think you are misunderstanding my post. an aviation degree provides a person with an in depth education on things like aerodynamics which were covered in a week at UPT. you keep confusing airline guys with guys with aviation degrees when one has very little to do with another. my having a thorough knowledge of aviation prior to UPT made things like studying aero mundane. my advice, if you wanted to be a pilot or management if you develope a medical issue, is to get a degree in the career field you hope to enter. I'm not saying it works for everyone, but sure worked for me!

UAL T38 Phlyer

Tanker:

Many young, impressionable college-bound guys bite-off on the sales pitches of places like E-R, Univ of ND, Auburn, Purdue, etc. They sell them on the idea of an "Aviation Degree" that includes lots of flight time, and ratings, in their programs. To me, "Aviation Degree" seems synonymous with "Flight Hours from College." (I've never met a student with an Aviation Degree who did not have lots of flight time from his school). They allude that their program is a guarantee to a groovy aviation career. Every advertisement I've seen in magazines shows some 20-somethings preflighting a Cessna or Piper with "airline" shirts and epaulettes. There is always an attractive girl in the group, to not only entice women to consider enrolling, but to imply to the guys that they can fly airplanes AND hook-up with cute girls who are studying the same major.

The degrees that are associated with this college-credit FBO are usually optimistically titled "Aviation Management," or similar title. From what I've seen, it is obvious that the primary emphasis at the schools is not on academics; it is the flightline. While it is true that the AIr Force does not give much classroom time for aero, I've never met anyone from one of the aforementioned schools who knew significantly more about it than other students. In fact, they often have some common misconceptions that stem from the civilian-flying world. The real test is: can they use their knowledge of aero from the classroom, and apply it in the airplane? The answer is, Aviation Degree guys are no different than Joe Bag O'Donuts.

The reason I used the airline students as examples: airline students are always Guard or Reserve, and many are products of Aviation Degree schools, so it is fitting to show if there is a correlation. The schools hype getting more ratings, and more hours, as the key to future aviation success. It puts these young, impressionable, love-struck students (or their parents) deep in a financial hole. As USMCFlyer, WAR, and I have attested, it doesn't really help...the students. But it sure helps the schools make money.

The original poster wanted advice on how to get into a Guard Unit and get a UPT slot. His posts show he wants to use the money from being enlisted in the Guard to finance his education, and for flying. I think that is great! It is admirable that he wants to go to great lengths to achieve his dream. But I think he can achieve that goal in a more practical manner by going to a school that may be nearby and affordable (as opposed to moving to Florida), studying a degree that might be in demand (not many openings for "Aviation Managers"), and flying once or twice a week, as his finances, or college studies, allows. He doesn't need to get a lot of time, or a lot of ratings. If he stays close to his Guard unit, he can drill more...and make more money to finance the above.

Politicians, car salesmen, and Aviation Schools will always tell you what you want to hear. It's great that it worked for you, but the empirical statistics compiled by USMC, WAR, and I say that it isn't the only way, or even necessarily the best way.

But it is probably the most expensive way.

JerkStore

How is Joe Bags these days? Lol

WARich

still trying to kill the ip or bend metal everyday.

kme9418

It's already been said but it bears repeating: only believe half of what a recruiter tells you. Even if they are not trying to be dishonest to sign you up, chances are they just don't know the ins & outs of a flying squadron. Remember that most of the jobs in the usaf dont have much to do w aviation. Best option is talk to dudes in the unit you are interested in. Also, to reiterate, jobs that work near the dudes on the upt hiring board have the best chance of selection fair or not...think loadmaster, boom, flying crew chief. Good luck.

Adlerdriver

tankerdude,
You kind of back-tracked from your initial post. You went from "aviation degree = UPT was a joke" to now it make academics mundane.

I sort of get what you're saying but your delivery needs work. My mechanical engineering degree helped me during academics. The fluid dynamics classes I took in college made much of the stuff we studied in UPT easier. However, I wouldn't steer anyone toward an ME degree just to make UPT academics easier. If they wanted a good backup plan, I'd say it would give them way more bang for their buck than your advice.

One other thing... you make it sound like the academic phase of UPT is way more than it really is. It's basic info and comprises a fraction of the syllabus.

If you were able to breeze through UPT, I'd say it's because you have some natural talent for flying and not because you had an aviation degree. It's been a little while but I think I remember UPT being mostly about flying and very little about high-level aviation academics.