Cessna builds a tactical jet
02-22-2010, 06:19 PM
#12
Moderator
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
You know what can already do most.....if not all of these requirements ?
The selected LAAR aircraft will have to meet several key requirements, including:
- Rough field operations. The RFI requires that the aircraft be capable of operating from semi-prepared runways such as grass or dirt surfaces.
- Defensive package. The aircraft will have to include several defensive measures, including a Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS), a Radar warning receiver (RWR), and chaff and flare dispensers.
- Armored cockpit and engine.
- Long loiter time. The aircraft must be able to fly 5 hour sorties (with 30 minute fuel reserves).
- Range. The aircraft must have a 900 nautical mile (1600 km) ferry range.
- Data link capability. The aircraft is required to have a line-of-sight data link (with beyond line-of-sight desired) capability of transmitting and receiving still and video images.
- Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities. The aircraft will have to laser track and designate targets, as well as track targets using electro-optical and infrared video/still images.
- Weaponry. The LAAR aircraft will need at least 4 weapons stores capable of carrying a variety of weapons, including 500 lb bombs, 2.75 inch rockets, rail-launched missiles, and illumination flares. The aircraft will also be capable of aerial gunnery, either with an integrated or pylon mounted gun.
Desired traits (but not requirements) include:
- Infrared signature suppression for the engine(s).
- 30,000 ft (9000 m) operational ceiling.
- 6,000 ft (1800 m) takeoff and landing distance.
- Aerobatic capabilities capable of maneuvers such as the Immelmann turn, Cuban eight, and Split S.
-------------------------
UAVs!
Just saying......
USMCFLYR
The selected LAAR aircraft will have to meet several key requirements, including:
- Rough field operations. The RFI requires that the aircraft be capable of operating from semi-prepared runways such as grass or dirt surfaces.
- Defensive package. The aircraft will have to include several defensive measures, including a Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS), a Radar warning receiver (RWR), and chaff and flare dispensers.
- Armored cockpit and engine.
- Long loiter time. The aircraft must be able to fly 5 hour sorties (with 30 minute fuel reserves).
- Range. The aircraft must have a 900 nautical mile (1600 km) ferry range.
- Data link capability. The aircraft is required to have a line-of-sight data link (with beyond line-of-sight desired) capability of transmitting and receiving still and video images.
- Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities. The aircraft will have to laser track and designate targets, as well as track targets using electro-optical and infrared video/still images.
- Weaponry. The LAAR aircraft will need at least 4 weapons stores capable of carrying a variety of weapons, including 500 lb bombs, 2.75 inch rockets, rail-launched missiles, and illumination flares. The aircraft will also be capable of aerial gunnery, either with an integrated or pylon mounted gun.
Desired traits (but not requirements) include:
- Infrared signature suppression for the engine(s).
- 30,000 ft (9000 m) operational ceiling.
- 6,000 ft (1800 m) takeoff and landing distance.
- Aerobatic capabilities capable of maneuvers such as the Immelmann turn, Cuban eight, and Split S.
-------------------------
UAVs!
Just saying......
USMCFLYR
But there are several problems with it as a LAAR airplane. Worst is the 1.2 second delay in the fire command due to the satellite linkage, hard to nail a foe with your Gatling gun when it tracks 1.2 seconds behind you. Second, Cuban Eights and other aerobatic maneuvers are not possible with high-aspect ratio wings. They can't take the stress. The Reaper is designed to supplement bombers and fighters with its high-AR wings, but it is at the expense of maneuverability. Third, and I am guessing here, but I believe rough field operation is next to impossible with these aircaft because the operator can't get enough real-time feedback to counteract bumps, ground swells, updrafts at tree rows, when to gun it out of the mud and so on. So, it pretty much has to takeoff on improved runways, not a LAAR operation. I do think you could develop a RPV to do all this but so far no one has. Maybe there is a RPV helicopter that can do it.
02-22-2010, 06:50 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
Other than saving pilot lives which is of course a very huge plus, UAVs or RPVs (remotely piloted vehicles) do not offer anything very competitive in this category as far as I can tell. Surfing Wikipedia for a few hours tells us the closest thing in a UAV might be the General Atomics Reaper MQ-9 as in the movie "Eagle Eye". It does a lot of the things a LAAR aircraft has to do, such as having hard points for underwing mountables, has a turboprop for dusty airfields, it looks like it has decent short field capability, it has very decent total payload, decent range, and of course these vehicles have extreme loiter capability.
But there are several problems with it as a LAAR candidate. Worst is the 1.2 second delay in the fire command due to the satellite linkage, and I seriously doubt it manage a Gatling gun with that much delay. Next, Cuban Eights or anything aerobatic is probably not possible with the high-aspect ratio wings. They can't take the stress. The aircraft was designed to supplement manned bombers and fighters; the wing lets it fly a long time (14 to 42 hours) without stopping but it is probably not rated to very high g loading. Last and I am guessing quite a bit, but I believe rough field operations are impossible for UAV airplanes because the operator can't get enough feedback in real-time to counter bumps, swells, and other vagaries associated with rough airfields. I could be wrong, but I suspect they do not have enough control feedback to effectively counter ground swells, updrafts at tree rows, and when to gun the engine to get out of a mud bog to name a few things I am used to personally. So, it pretty much has to takeoff on improved runways which is another serious shortcoming.
But there are several problems with it as a LAAR candidate. Worst is the 1.2 second delay in the fire command due to the satellite linkage, and I seriously doubt it manage a Gatling gun with that much delay. Next, Cuban Eights or anything aerobatic is probably not possible with the high-aspect ratio wings. They can't take the stress. The aircraft was designed to supplement manned bombers and fighters; the wing lets it fly a long time (14 to 42 hours) without stopping but it is probably not rated to very high g loading. Last and I am guessing quite a bit, but I believe rough field operations are impossible for UAV airplanes because the operator can't get enough feedback in real-time to counter bumps, swells, and other vagaries associated with rough airfields. I could be wrong, but I suspect they do not have enough control feedback to effectively counter ground swells, updrafts at tree rows, and when to gun the engine to get out of a mud bog to name a few things I am used to personally. So, it pretty much has to takeoff on improved runways which is another serious shortcoming.
All of this is said with a little bit of
involved on my part. As a manned airplane pilot (well at least I was 
), I'm no big fan of UAV in certain roles as it is, but you are dealing with a service here who is already putting as many, if not more, pilot into UAVs than manned aircraft this very year. WHO KNOWS what is to come in 3 years down the road when this LAAR is supopse to first hit the fleet (what aircraft has actually met a milestone recently???) and the first step hasn't even really been taken yet.This is not the same environment that other aircraft have operated in the past (though with proliferation it could be), but there was a reason those OV-10s got pulled up much higher in their operating altitudes during the Gulf War and were soon retired from the USMC fleet at least. If it needs chaff and flare dispensers, exactly what type of threat environment are we talking about here? Sounds like another Bradley fighting vechile. Start out with an easy idea and by the time that everyone has put on their ideas of what it needs or add yet another capability to it then you're right back to an A-10.
In the end - we'll see what our professionals come up with. I wonder what an OV-10X would look like
PHOTO: Boeing pitches OV-10X Bronco for USAF light attack - The DEW Line
Have you taken a look at the unmanned helos lately?
Won't be long before they are powerful enough to carry a few missiles and they obviously can already put a gun on them. Imagine these things just hovering around the block, bristling with numerous targeting sensors, and ready to take out anything from a armored personnel carrier to personnel in the open!
Unmanned Military Helicopter - Vigilante 502 Unmanned Helicopter Specs - Popular Mechanics
Fire Scout – UAV Helicopter (watch the 2:00+ minute video) I've been watching this thing on the Military Channel lately, what they are doing with unmanned systems in general lately is just scary!
USMCFLYR
02-22-2010, 07:43 PM
#15
Moderator
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
USMC, I think they could overcome the rough field problem by using a STOL configuration consisting of a high-wing, low aspect-ratio fully blown (stiff) wing. This means the engine pumps air into the wing to increase boundary layer adhesion for an artificially-high lift curve slope. This with a decent self-stabilizing landing system would make it very hard to goof up a landing or a takeoff because it would be going a couple hundred feet loaded on the roll. As far as the up-link delay, the specs call for laser gun tracking already, so I don't see why it can't shoot the gun on its own with a human limited to verification purposes. An RPV could be made to do all this even with today's technology. I would have to say however that my studies tell me the development cycle on a new aircraft is 4 years so it isn't going to happen by 2012. But I do think it is possible. In the meantime I am hoping the Texan gets the contract and they can have me along with the deal.
02-22-2010, 07:50 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
USMC, I think they could overcome the rough field problem by using a STOL configuration consisting of a high-wing, low aspect-ratio fully blown (stiff) wing. This means the engine pumps air into the wing to increase boundary layer adhesion for an artificially-high lift curve slope. This with a decent self-stabilizing landing system would make it very hard to goof up a landing or a takeoff because it would be going a couple hundred feet loaded on the roll. As far as the up-link delay, the specs call for laser gun tracking already, so I don't see why it can't shoot the gun on its own with a human limited to verification purposes. An RPV could be made to do all this even with today's technology. I would have to say however that my studies tell me the development cycle on a new aircraft is 4 years so it isn't going to happen by 2012. But I do think it is possible. In the meantime I am hoping the Texan gets the contract and they can have me along with the deal.
If you do come along with the deal then you'll need someone who has no experience with the aircraft to help you out. I'm currently available 
USMCFLYR
04-09-2010, 07:22 AM
#18
Moderator
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Hawker Beechcraft Adds More Power To Armed AT-6, Will Bid On LAAR Contract.
Flight International (4/7, Trimble) reported Hawker Beechcraft demonstrated "a more powerful version of its AT-6 turboprop, ahead of a US Air Force competition for a light attack and armed reconnaissance (LAAR) aircraft." The aircraft also "received a mission avionics upgrade based on the Fairchild A-10 close air support aircraft. The AT-6 can carry a variety of missiles, guns and bombs, plus sensors to gather information, identify targets and guide the weapons." The AT-6 remains one of several potential bidders for the LAAR contract, a competition that will start next year. The LAAR aircraft will fill a "potential niche" within the USAF for "aircraft optimised for irregular warfare campaigns." Chief of Staff Gen Norton Schwartz said that "the USAF wants a LAAR aircraft that is derived from a model already in the inventory."
Flight International (4/7, Trimble) reported Hawker Beechcraft demonstrated "a more powerful version of its AT-6 turboprop, ahead of a US Air Force competition for a light attack and armed reconnaissance (LAAR) aircraft." The aircraft also "received a mission avionics upgrade based on the Fairchild A-10 close air support aircraft. The AT-6 can carry a variety of missiles, guns and bombs, plus sensors to gather information, identify targets and guide the weapons." The AT-6 remains one of several potential bidders for the LAAR contract, a competition that will start next year. The LAAR aircraft will fill a "potential niche" within the USAF for "aircraft optimised for irregular warfare campaigns." Chief of Staff Gen Norton Schwartz said that "the USAF wants a LAAR aircraft that is derived from a model already in the inventory."
05-07-2010, 05:19 PM
#20
Moderator
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
I really hope the T6A LAARs derivative gets the contract. Those things look and sound fantastic flying around here in Wichita where Hawker Beechcraft manufactures them at their plant on the east side. I am out washing my truck today and one of them does a 3-g break over my house and I think wow, this would be a great low-altitude attack airplane with some armament added to it.
T6A on A dot net
Wiki on Texan II
Wiki on LAARs aircraft
T6A on A dot net
Wiki on Texan II
Wiki on LAARs aircraft
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
turk
Flight Schools and Training
29
01-13-2012 06:58 AM
