ForeverFO

Purely one ex-mil guy's opinion... don't focus too much on the $$. It's obviously important, but it can rapidly devolve to where you'd rather earn a bit less, but have a MUCH better lifestyle and schedule.

Consider the type of flying that appeals to you. We pax airline guys whine about the self-loading cargo we fly about, but deep down, it is pretty cool to interact with them, the majority being very nice and excited to be on their big trip. About every 5th leg, some kid comes up at the gate, gets starry eyed, and you feel enthusiasm again for aviation.

Do you want to fly 4 or even 5 short legs a day? Or do you prefer "dozing for dollars" with an augmented crew, flying all around the world? I found I much prefer the latter, since we are not paid when not off the gate, and doing 5 walk-arounds, getting paperwork etc etc, is uncompensated work. For reference, my record 3-day trip was 24 legs. I'll never do that again.

I wouldn't worry all that much about CA upgrade, unless it is purely the $$ you need. At AA, we have a HUGE number of mil retirees who progress to widebody FO, and then camp there until age 65. Less stress, less responsibility. Some of the most senior lines at DFW are Tokyo 777 FC, the #4 guy on the trip. You show up, do a walk-around, then sit and monitor everything, plus sleep about 5 hours each way. It's a nice gig.

As you get older (I'm 51), lifestyle and schedule become more and more important, so look for a carrier with good work rules and a good schedule. all-nighters and all-weekend flying with bad work rules gets really old, fast.

Good luck! It's a great change from the military. No debrief, you simply say goodbye after parking and go home.

gr8vu

Thanks for info. I plugged the WB FO forever scenario into the formula and it came in at $2.6M which closely matches the pay for a late (12 or more years) WB upgrade and also the NB upgrade earlier at 9-10 years. So the seniority may well be worth it for schedule control as has been highlighted.

Until I get a real feeling for the lifestyle and schedule realities it's hard to really know what to expect. I've done the short haul/quick turns in Learjets and the long haul in strat airlift. Hadn't really thought about the ground time and walk around being off the clock...see the time/pay efficiency of doing the longer legs.

How do you compare "good work rules and good schedule" across the majors? I know SWA does more legs per day but how do the others compare?

L'il J.Seinfeld

I would plan on beginning terminal leave on 3/1/14. That way you can really enjoy the holidays. I think your timing is great. I got hired at SWA, and UPS in 2005 without knowing anyone and I was your typical white male KC-135 pilot senior O-3 type.

You'll get hired somewhere in 2014. Might as well start sooner than later.

MilitaryAV8R

L’il Seinfeld, I find it re-assuring that you think 1 March 14 is a good time to get out. I am an Army pilot and with the current budget cuts going on, I will get my final pass over for promotion. I will be forced to retire the first day of the seventh month after the promotion board is released. That normally works out to 1 March of the following year.

What I would really like to do though is go into the high end Fractionals (NetJets, Flexjet, Etc) and the timing does not look all that good for them. With most of the fractionals having pilots on furlough and most estimates are there will be no new hiring for a least a couple years, I really think I will have to take a different path than I would like. I do agree with you though, I will find a job next year with the overall hiring that is coming. Just probably not the “Dream Job” just yet.

Adlerdriver

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForeverFO

Do you want to fly 4 or even 5 short legs a day? Or do you prefer "dozing for dollars" with an augmented crew, flying all around the world? I found I much prefer the latter, since we are not paid when not off the gate, and doing 5 walk-arounds, getting paperwork etc etc, is uncompensated work. For reference, my record 3-day trip was 24 legs. I'll never do that again.

I think I know what you’re saying here but IMO, this really isn’t a completely accurate statement. We don’t always get paid based just on time off the gate. Sometimes it’s min pay per day, TAFB/trip rig, monthly guarantee, etc. depending on the company and contract. We all review paperwork and do walk-arounds – it’s part of the job and we do get paid for that job.

I’m a big fan of max pay for min work. Maybe what you’re really trying to discuss is finding easy trips with the least work. I’d contend that we all get paid to review one flight plan and (F/O’s) get paid for one walk-around each day we fly. We don’t get paid extra for more than that, so anything over and above those could be considered “uncompensated work”.

Dirtdiver

Seniority isn't just everything, it's bigger than that!

For 25 years I've watched someone hired 2 weeks/1 month/3 months before me get the last regular line, the last trip to Europe, the vacation I needed, not get displaced from my category, get the equipment bid I wanted.... the list goes on and on.

There should be a hiring boom coming soon at all the majors, and it may be hard to appreciate from the outside, but even getting in one class (2 weeks) sooner will make a difference the rest of your career.

Don't sweat upgrade times too much. Things change, the next 10 years will be completely different. Not uncommon for AD retirees to camp out in the right seat of the heavy metal, not as much pay difference as the charts make it look like.

ForeverFO

We are on the same page. Max pay for min work, and obviously being professional (doing the job correctly) throughout.

That 24 leg 3 day I spoke of was as a 727-100 FE with the crappy old baro pneumatic system, and the giant AA mechanical checklist. It was a huge amount of work, and when the smoke cleared, I could have been paid the same for 5 legs.

My point - it'd be best to find the sort of flying that appeals, and to do that, one must get hired by a company with a range of flying. Some guys like Southwest-type trips, others the long haul, but you've got to be able to compare the two styles of flying, find what works for you.

That's a tough question. Look beyond hourly pay rates, and examine the work rules, which can be a mish-mash of obscure terms that might not mean much to you, yet. This forum is a good place to explore, Ask questions, you'll get solid answers.

I'll give an example of a work rule that really screwed us at AA. A few years back, we went from a "5 hour minimum per day" to a "5 hour average day." They sound similar, but in scheduling/pay terms, it was a very bad deal. For example, let's say you've got a 3-day trip like this:

Leg 1: 2.5
Leg 2: 3.0
------------
Leg 3: 2.5
------------
Leg 4: 2.0
Leg 5: 2.5
Leg 6: 3.0

Under the 5 hour minimum per day rule, the trip would be worth 18.0. But under the 5 hour average per day rule, the trip is only worth 15.5 hours.

Lobaeux

This thread has some great advice.
I think the decision comes down to a personal one, based on everything that's been said in here.
Retirement pay is pretty nice, I gotta say. I got my first retirement paycheck last month, I did nothing but golf and watch soccer. I've interviewed at a couple of places and am still waiting to hear.
But, here's where retirement sucks: Honeydew list, I get a new one every day. Even with sequestration, I still see aircraft flying in the pattern, remembering exactly what it was like. That kind of hurts. I see former squadron mates on Facebook and know I'm no longer a part of that camaraderie.
It's a difficult decision, I could've held off my retirement until October, but I made the decision to retire.
Whatever decision you make, it'll be the right one, even if it may not seem like it at the time. If you go in with that thought, you'll be happy.

e6bpilot

This is a great thread, thanks AF bros. I am contemplating making the jump December 2014 (available in October). I will be retiring, so I will have a little bit of cushion pay wise, but am looking to try and get on initially with the company that is going to carry me through a second career. I do realize that this industry has been goofy and that I shouldn't depend on stability too much.
With seniority being everything, it would seem that getting on early would be key and then letting the rest sort itself out.
Quick question: how long does it typically take to switch bases if you are unhappy with the base that you are hired with? I live in Oklahoma City and would love to stay, but I am guessing that commuting from here is probably going to be tough. My family isn't totally against relocating, but we like it here and the cost of living is super cheap.

gr8vu

Agree with the good discussion on this thread. As one poster recommended getting your significant other's buy-in for this lifestyle is important. That is what I use career earnings calculations for so I can show her the relative differences in earnings and discuss lifestyle tradeoffs. Unfortunately when I said--so do you want me home more with less pay or gone more with more money--she didn't hesitate and stated she liked the gone more and more pay. Hopefully my kids aren't quite as emphatic. For now, at least I have a kitchen pass for any future employer.