Tail Slides
07-12-2006, 05:13 PM
#11
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by jungle
2dotslow, Your AF background says everything about your lack of experience with departure from controlled flight. Navy pilots got repeat checkouts in the T-2 and if you didn't depart once in a while during an ACM engagement you really weren't trying hard enough. I do remember flying into a few AF bases that had all the tactical air grounded for 500 and 1/2, the AF does have an outstanding safety record.
I used to teach spins and departures in the T-2, so I've seen more than a few departures. Just because you've never tail slid an F-4 doesn't mean it hasn't been done-I've seen several and all manner of departures in the same A/C without a problem. Scoff away demo pilot, but don't think it can't be done.
I used to teach spins and departures in the T-2, so I've seen more than a few departures. Just because you've never tail slid an F-4 doesn't mean it hasn't been done-I've seen several and all manner of departures in the same A/C without a problem. Scoff away demo pilot, but don't think it can't be done.
07-12-2006, 06:19 PM
#13
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Crewmember
Posts: 1,396
Originally Posted by 2dotslow
Two points, two questions, jungle. First, as I said, the T-37 was/is? used for departure/spin training. Student pilots had to demonstrate proficiency in both spin prevention and spin recovery procedures. It was the only aircraft in which a pilot was allowed to purposely depart controlled flight. That training sufficed for the basics of departure recognition and recovery techniques...the actual procedures were as varied as the tactical planes they subsequently flew. Secondly, the McDonnell Aircraft F-4 manuals and the AF's Dash 1 restricted maneuvers like tailslides, intentional spins, roll coupling entry, etc. If NATOPS didn't prohibit them as well, I'd be very surprised. Questions: 1...what do weather mins for certain places or operations have to do with anything in this discussion? 2...What exactly do you mean by "I've seen several..."? Seen? You did them, rode in the backseat, in a chase plane, what? Oh yeah, I never said it couldn't be done...just stupid to do it in tactical warplanes. Besides, you'd already seen the movie in trainers, so unless you wanted to shine your ass, who cared.
07-12-2006, 06:31 PM
#14
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Posts: 125
Originally Posted by Nightflyer
Just a head's up, 2 dots, the only Jungle I know was a Blue Angel, for two tours, no less. He can, unquestionably, walk the walk, is a superb aviator and an all-around great guy, not that you aren't, either.
07-12-2006, 06:35 PM
#15
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Posts: 1,396
Originally Posted by 2dotslow
Whew! As I started reading your post, I was thinking "the only Jungle I know"...was a Mafia hitman. Thanks.
07-13-2006, 04:22 AM
#16
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
Nightflyer, I can't take the credit for being the jungle you know, but I can take the credit for speaking honestly. It's always funny how something can be crazy unsafe to one person and ops normal for another. I have a friend who likes to BASE jump-now that is crazy!
08-07-2006, 08:36 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by Linebacker35
Just wondering if any of you military guys have done tail slides? I saw a show on the military channel about them. Said something about they are only done in the F-15 and its only allowed to be done at Edwards. They looked intense, looks like alot of fun.
I taught at the F-15E FTU for 5 years... and the tailslide was in the TR section of the syllabus... every transitioning pilot did them. Actually quite fun... never a dull moment<g>.
08-07-2006, 08:41 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by 2dotslow
That's why I kinda scoffed at the idea of putting a Phantom in a tailslide. The odds of getting into a spin or coupled departure far exceeded the goofiness of attempting the trick. FWIW, in the late 70's I was a 9th AF F-4 flight demonstration pilot. Lots of airshows, lots of maneuvers, no tailslides.
08-07-2006, 06:46 PM
#19
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Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 394
All of this has been an interesting discussion. I've enjoyed the ideas put forth by those who claim experience in this maneuver.
Let's take it one by one. First, the tactical aspect. There is no tactical advantage to be gained by the 'tail slide'. Those that think so may be confusing the maneuver with the 'hammerhead'. That maneuver had some applicability in a guns only environment...but in a heat-seeking missile fight, not a particularly good idea.
Now...'tail sliding' in the F-4...in a knife fight. Not really something we did much of...this result of an excessive nose high pitch attitude was the mark of a true rookie. Instead, in a vertical fight, we often got into a 'who can fall the slowest' type of fight...essentially either a very slow rolling scissors or a flat out full aft stick, rudder walking exercise on nose control. If you are still with me, carry on.
Aircraft, being often much smarter than pilots, tend to want to keep the pointy end going forward. For that reason, once airspeed has slowed to zero, the entry into a 'tail slide' usually results in the airplane pitching one way or the other towards the nearest horizon. The aircraft then sorta flops around (goes thru a few nose low pitch oscillations around the true vertical) for a moment or two until it gains enough airspeed to allow it to once again fly pointy end down. At that point, the pilot is free to begin his recovery procedures.
Lastly...aircraft do not 'spin' when coming out of a 'tail slide'...not unless the pilot is a complete hamfist.
Let's take it one by one. First, the tactical aspect. There is no tactical advantage to be gained by the 'tail slide'. Those that think so may be confusing the maneuver with the 'hammerhead'. That maneuver had some applicability in a guns only environment...but in a heat-seeking missile fight, not a particularly good idea.
Now...'tail sliding' in the F-4...in a knife fight. Not really something we did much of...this result of an excessive nose high pitch attitude was the mark of a true rookie. Instead, in a vertical fight, we often got into a 'who can fall the slowest' type of fight...essentially either a very slow rolling scissors or a flat out full aft stick, rudder walking exercise on nose control. If you are still with me, carry on.
Aircraft, being often much smarter than pilots, tend to want to keep the pointy end going forward. For that reason, once airspeed has slowed to zero, the entry into a 'tail slide' usually results in the airplane pitching one way or the other towards the nearest horizon. The aircraft then sorta flops around (goes thru a few nose low pitch oscillations around the true vertical) for a moment or two until it gains enough airspeed to allow it to once again fly pointy end down. At that point, the pilot is free to begin his recovery procedures.
Lastly...aircraft do not 'spin' when coming out of a 'tail slide'...not unless the pilot is a complete hamfist.
08-08-2006, 11:08 AM
#20
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
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Posts: 6,191
Exactly. No tactical application at all, but a learning experience to teach that all is not lost when the A/S goes to zero(of course, no one was ever hamfisted enough to let the speed fall off while looking outside at the opponent) with the nose vertical. The typical recovery is a few "falling leaf" type swings through the vertical nose down as airspeed builds to allow control.
As others have mentioned, low speed knife fights in a phone booth are likely to end with someone else shooting into the phone booth.
As others have mentioned, low speed knife fights in a phone booth are likely to end with someone else shooting into the phone booth.
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