Raptor retention bonus numbers
10-29-2008, 08:43 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
I was one of the captains in 97 who went to talk to USAFE CC Gen Ryan (later CSAF) on these issues. I also have had 3 good bros work assignments at AFMPC working as fighter assignment guys.
The whole thing is quite cyclic. What is old is new and vice versa. I remember when one Korea ALO assignment led to 17 seperations. The idea the AF had was "we cannot afford to DO DEALS with pilots". They were concerned pilots would try to make the assignment process a "Burger King" deal...when it really is about needs of the AF.
That sounds good on paper, but when 17 fighter dudes bail you wonder if a little common sense or exceptions could be made. Fact is, however, a bunch of not so desirable assignments have to be filled. If I were King I'd just attach a first choice follow on to each UAV or hard to fill remote and do some dealing, but nobody asked me either. That is part of the reason I am retired ANG, not retired USAF.
I also think everyone realizes that at some point flying is not the ONLY thing in life that matters. I watched a show on the making of porn movies on a layover recently--turns out those dudes and chicks only do 2-3 scenes a day, and sometimes not that many. Why? They are TIRED. So--if getting paid to screw can get tiring, even flying the coolest jet out there (the Raptor) if you are working 12-14 hour duty days covered in additional duties probably has its limits too... I'm too fat and my skin is too pasty to have been a porn star, but having flown the F-15 for 15 years I can tell you that while I loved it dearly doing it as an ops squadron bro for 6 years straight meant there were some days I came home just wiped out. I really didn't do nearly as much with family back then as I do now as an airline pilot, even though I spend a lot of time on the road. M-F I came home to eat and sleep, then up early for another round. Add the deployments in there and I realize how much of my family life I really missed.
On a side note--I do see a ray of hope. On another thread, I am recruiting folks for additional manpower in UAV squadrons. I expect if these programs succeed (and they should) we'll eventually see a move to put similar help in ops squadrons. If I could have spent more time in the vault, sim, WTT, or gym instead of pounding out gradebooks, OPRs, and some of the other queep of running a squadron, I might have been a lot less likely to bail. What got old was wanting to be BETTER, but being told YOU ARE GOOD ENOUGH NOW, go do this unimportant stuff. In a nutshell, we are told to go be the best warfighters we can. But the reality is go be the best warfighters you can be on x sorties a month, x sims, a few hours in the weapons shop and gym, and the rest of the time you need to do these mundane tasks. No disrespect to anyone, but I often wondered why a highly trained warrior in fighters was spending more of his time doing paperwork that a couple of highly trained NCOs could have tackled. Now that the SecDef has finally thrown a tizzy that only 30 of 50 or so desired UAV caps are manned 24/7 (published in USA Today, not classifed) we suddenly have the money to let UAV pilots do what they should....blow $hit up, study to blow more $hit up, and get some rest so they can blow $hit up tomorrow. My hope is that some of that same picture flows out to the rest of the CAF. We can always hope....
The whole thing is quite cyclic. What is old is new and vice versa. I remember when one Korea ALO assignment led to 17 seperations. The idea the AF had was "we cannot afford to DO DEALS with pilots". They were concerned pilots would try to make the assignment process a "Burger King" deal...when it really is about needs of the AF.
That sounds good on paper, but when 17 fighter dudes bail you wonder if a little common sense or exceptions could be made. Fact is, however, a bunch of not so desirable assignments have to be filled. If I were King I'd just attach a first choice follow on to each UAV or hard to fill remote and do some dealing, but nobody asked me either. That is part of the reason I am retired ANG, not retired USAF.
I also think everyone realizes that at some point flying is not the ONLY thing in life that matters. I watched a show on the making of porn movies on a layover recently--turns out those dudes and chicks only do 2-3 scenes a day, and sometimes not that many. Why? They are TIRED. So--if getting paid to screw can get tiring, even flying the coolest jet out there (the Raptor) if you are working 12-14 hour duty days covered in additional duties probably has its limits too... I'm too fat and my skin is too pasty to have been a porn star, but having flown the F-15 for 15 years I can tell you that while I loved it dearly doing it as an ops squadron bro for 6 years straight meant there were some days I came home just wiped out. I really didn't do nearly as much with family back then as I do now as an airline pilot, even though I spend a lot of time on the road. M-F I came home to eat and sleep, then up early for another round. Add the deployments in there and I realize how much of my family life I really missed.
On a side note--I do see a ray of hope. On another thread, I am recruiting folks for additional manpower in UAV squadrons. I expect if these programs succeed (and they should) we'll eventually see a move to put similar help in ops squadrons. If I could have spent more time in the vault, sim, WTT, or gym instead of pounding out gradebooks, OPRs, and some of the other queep of running a squadron, I might have been a lot less likely to bail. What got old was wanting to be BETTER, but being told YOU ARE GOOD ENOUGH NOW, go do this unimportant stuff. In a nutshell, we are told to go be the best warfighters we can. But the reality is go be the best warfighters you can be on x sorties a month, x sims, a few hours in the weapons shop and gym, and the rest of the time you need to do these mundane tasks. No disrespect to anyone, but I often wondered why a highly trained warrior in fighters was spending more of his time doing paperwork that a couple of highly trained NCOs could have tackled. Now that the SecDef has finally thrown a tizzy that only 30 of 50 or so desired UAV caps are manned 24/7 (published in USA Today, not classifed) we suddenly have the money to let UAV pilots do what they should....blow $hit up, study to blow more $hit up, and get some rest so they can blow $hit up tomorrow. My hope is that some of that same picture flows out to the rest of the CAF. We can always hope....
10-30-2008, 02:09 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: C-5, 68th AS Rated Hiring Board Chief, B-1 Aircraft Commander/Mission Lead
Posts: 113
Great Post, LMAO! Best of luck with your search! Doing less with more means as a combat aviator, do paperwork and mundane tasks all day long, and use your personal time to study the jet/tactics, while maintaining basic proficiency, flying less than the Russian Air Force. We have definitely lost sight of our objectives!
10-30-2008, 09:54 PM
#14
China Visa Applicant
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Midfield downwind
Posts: 1,928
Now that the SecDef has finally thrown a tizzy that only 30 of 50 or so desired UAV caps are manned 24/7 (published in USA Today, not classifed) we suddenly have the money to let UAV pilots do what they should....blow $hit up, study to blow more $hit up, and get some rest so they can blow $hit up tomorrow. My hope is that some of that same picture flows out to the rest of the CAF. We can always hope....
As an example, in my squadron we have about 10 first-tour pilots who are all up for assignments in the next few months. Because of the "MUST FILL -- NOW!" nature of these jobs (RC-12 and UAS), it means that literally half of these guys will be diverted over to other airframes/jobs. Are they ever coming back? Nobody knows...but either way the fighter community is losing out.
So, we have another massive knee-jerk reaction to the closest, hottest target with little or no thought ALLOWED about the range-limited targets that are sitting just off the scope, yet will be in our chili within the next couple years.
10-31-2008, 01:40 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: new guy
Posts: 382
Speaking of bonuses, the Navy has not even released ACCP-09, so it is a month into the fiscal year, and nobody can take the bonus because it technically doesn't exist yet. I've heard the standard rumors that it will increase and that it is getting cut. My guess is that it is staying the same since I could not find any changes mentioned for it in the Defense Appropriations Bill and the Navy would be stupid to offer less than the current maximum with retention so low right now. I don't know anybody in my peer group desiring to stay around. Most for the reasons mentioned in above posts. Even with few flying jobs available on the outside, people are bailing. My opt-in/out is coming rapidly. In fact, I think because of year group shifts, I will have to opt-in/out before I am eligible for the bonus. That should tell you how bad things are going for manning right now.
10-31-2008, 10:40 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: On the Rock
Posts: 162
The whole thing is quite cyclic.
I also think everyone realizes that at some point flying is not the ONLY thing in life that matters. I watched a show on the making of porn movies on a layover recently--turns out those dudes and chicks only do 2-3 scenes a day, and sometimes not that many. Why? They are TIRED. So--if getting paid to screw can get tiring, even flying the coolest jet out there (the Raptor) if you are working 12-14 hour duty days covered in additional duties probably has its limits too...
I also think everyone realizes that at some point flying is not the ONLY thing in life that matters. I watched a show on the making of porn movies on a layover recently--turns out those dudes and chicks only do 2-3 scenes a day, and sometimes not that many. Why? They are TIRED. So--if getting paid to screw can get tiring, even flying the coolest jet out there (the Raptor) if you are working 12-14 hour duty days covered in additional duties probably has its limits too...
10-31-2008, 04:18 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 357
One of the major problems with all of this is; pilots want to be promoted for flying airplanes and the AF will not promote someone based solely on their flying.
Right or wrong as a pilot you have three choices, play the game w/ additional duties and get promoted, get out or don't play the game and don't get promoted.
The AF is never going to pay a Major or LTC to just fly. They can get Capts to do that. For the Capts, the needs of the AF will always come first.
It is what it is. I've always advocated the AF needs to just accept it and train more people. Although that's not the cost effective answer and in times of shrinking budgets it's tough to do.
Right or wrong as a pilot you have three choices, play the game w/ additional duties and get promoted, get out or don't play the game and don't get promoted.
The AF is never going to pay a Major or LTC to just fly. They can get Capts to do that. For the Capts, the needs of the AF will always come first.
It is what it is. I've always advocated the AF needs to just accept it and train more people. Although that's not the cost effective answer and in times of shrinking budgets it's tough to do.
10-31-2008, 06:48 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 945
10-31-2008, 08:09 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 43
MD10PLT:
Agreed: You will never get promoted for being a good or even an excellent pilot. But you will not get promoted for being a bad one. It's just assumed that you will be a good pilot and then get promoted based on how many CFC, AFAF, squadron booster club functions, Special olympics, Airshow functions you volunteer for. I just had to write OPRs on 2 LTs that have only been in the Squadron for 4 months. And 2 of those onths were spent getting msn ready. Since there is no OPR from pilot training and their Altus school is too short they there is no OPR until their first squadron. At which point we have to fill their OPRs with crap just so they won't be behind other career fields. LTs have to learn early on that the only way to get ahead is to volunteer for stuff in the "community." But that is contradictory to their job of flying a jet around the world.
Agreed: You will never get promoted for being a good or even an excellent pilot. But you will not get promoted for being a bad one. It's just assumed that you will be a good pilot and then get promoted based on how many CFC, AFAF, squadron booster club functions, Special olympics, Airshow functions you volunteer for. I just had to write OPRs on 2 LTs that have only been in the Squadron for 4 months. And 2 of those onths were spent getting msn ready. Since there is no OPR from pilot training and their Altus school is too short they there is no OPR until their first squadron. At which point we have to fill their OPRs with crap just so they won't be behind other career fields. LTs have to learn early on that the only way to get ahead is to volunteer for stuff in the "community." But that is contradictory to their job of flying a jet around the world.
11-03-2008, 06:16 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
One of the major problems with all of this is; pilots want to be promoted for flying airplanes and the AF will not promote someone based solely on their flying.
Right or wrong as a pilot you have three choices, play the game w/ additional duties and get promoted, get out or don't play the game and don't get promoted.
The AF is never going to pay a Major or LTC to just fly. They can get Capts to do that. For the Capts, the needs of the AF will always come first.
It is what it is. I've always advocated the AF needs to just accept it and train more people. Although that's not the cost effective answer and in times of shrinking budgets it's tough to do.
Right or wrong as a pilot you have three choices, play the game w/ additional duties and get promoted, get out or don't play the game and don't get promoted.
The AF is never going to pay a Major or LTC to just fly. They can get Capts to do that. For the Capts, the needs of the AF will always come first.
It is what it is. I've always advocated the AF needs to just accept it and train more people. Although that's not the cost effective answer and in times of shrinking budgets it's tough to do.
First--overmanning slightly and keeping guys busy doing queep...plus rotating guys through alpa tours (ATC, FACs, etc) were designed to create a higher total number of MWS capable guys. Why? Combat attrition. We haven't talked much about this since the Gulf War, but the defense of western europe against the warsaw pact was going to kill a lot of pilots, and it takes time to train more. So you needed some guys stateside to backfill combat losses.
Next--the Air Force does in fact have a career pilot track. Its called the Air National Guard. It is possible in some situations to be an ANG pilot and fly into your 40s or 50s. I could have probably flown the F15 until 2010 when it leaves Tyndall, but health issues with my back encouraged me to go ahead and retire. Some friends, however, will be 46-48 on their fini flights...
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