Morale killer
07-27-2008, 07:59 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Kickin it "C"old School in AK
Posts: 283
DM Red Carpet
Even more literally than you think... AKHawg you must know about this--I was at DM maybe 6 years ago filing a flight plan at BOps. Walked out the door right behind a E-2 or -3 maybe--he was continuing to walk in the same direction as me (across the flight line) with a wheeled bucket and mop. I asked him where in the h-e-double-L he was going with that. "I'm going out to mop the red carpet." That's the painted red carpet on the flight line in front of BOps. "What?!" I said... Yes... He explained to me that they mop the sand and dust off the red carpet about every other day at DM. Jumpin Jesus on a pogo stick--we just laughed and shook our heads together. And then I made him give me 20 pushups because I'm an officer and I can.
07-27-2008, 10:15 AM
#53
China Visa Applicant
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Midfield downwind
Posts: 1,928
No, this photo shows a scarf:
(just linked here because it's a big damn photo)
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photo...-6993R-001.jpg
FiFi here is wearing an ascot:
(just linked here because it's a big damn photo)
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photo...-6993R-001.jpg
FiFi here is wearing an ascot:
07-29-2008, 12:03 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: I pilot
Posts: 2,049
Haha thanks for the offer but I think I'll pass on that one!
08-02-2008, 10:28 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
08-03-2008, 12:31 PM
#57
layin' in tha cut...
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: C-130 Flying Crew Chief
Posts: 138
08-03-2008, 01:29 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
BDGERJMN, AK Hawg
Interesting discusion. This is very common unfortunately.
Slice never mentioned anything other than than mixed gender units deployed have fraternization problems. BDGERJMN introduced the capability of women. AK Hawg you made the same assumption. Slice did not question the capability of women. That had nothing to do nor has anything to do with the increased fraternization issues. I have service on both sides of this fence. Mixed gender, deployed units has caused many problems. It is a fact, many leaders fail this test, and the citizens of the US accept the increased leadership failures, broken homes, extra training costs, etc as a necessary part of military business in an all volunteer force. I accept that, but still have the same opinion as Slice, though unimportant anymore and I absolutely support current policy. Yes, have worked with some extraordinarily capable servicemembers of both genders. (Again, a non issue) The service of all volunteers is very appreciated. My sister was Navy enlisted, she actually shared alot of the reasons that formed my opinions. I won't duck the incoming PC comments <g>
Interesting discusion. This is very common unfortunately.
Slice never mentioned anything other than than mixed gender units deployed have fraternization problems. BDGERJMN introduced the capability of women. AK Hawg you made the same assumption. Slice did not question the capability of women. That had nothing to do nor has anything to do with the increased fraternization issues. I have service on both sides of this fence. Mixed gender, deployed units has caused many problems. It is a fact, many leaders fail this test, and the citizens of the US accept the increased leadership failures, broken homes, extra training costs, etc as a necessary part of military business in an all volunteer force. I accept that, but still have the same opinion as Slice, though unimportant anymore and I absolutely support current policy. Yes, have worked with some extraordinarily capable servicemembers of both genders. (Again, a non issue) The service of all volunteers is very appreciated. My sister was Navy enlisted, she actually shared alot of the reasons that formed my opinions. I won't duck the incoming PC comments <g>
Intra mural softball...pilots and ops verses maintainers in Spain around 1995. We had a really cute 1CO that was on our team. After a few innings of ball, she makes a smart remark about one of the enlisted guy's socks looking goofy. At that point, several other guys...mesmerized by her cute looks, also join the fray and raz the offending dude for his socks.
Now...play the tape without a woman there. Somebody makes a comment about a dude's clothes. The response I suspect he would have gotten would have been along the lines of "why don't you shut the $#@ up, what are you, a pole smoker? You wanna check out my undies too?"
My point is that putting women into a group dynamic changes things. In this case, every male wanted the little hottie's approval. I'm not saying its better or worse, but you cannot deny it is different. I fought in Desert Storm with a Europe based M-1A1 unit, and the battallion was all male. In the support areas, however, fratenization was obvious. Ditto on my trips to Dahran where the 1 Wing from Langley set up camp. The stress of impending battle, and possible death, brought a tension and atmosphere that probably invited the "why the heck not?" sort of mindset that I saw.
If improper relationships were happening, I am not here to lay (hehehe) blame on anyone. What I am pointing out is that sexual tension in the support echelons was very real and to ignore it and say "you all need to be professionals" is to ignore eons of biology and social programming.
My argument against women in fighter units for years was they run the risk of eroding or undermining the special warrior character that permeates a fighting unit. That said...one of my last flights in the F-15 was helping a sharp young gal get through her G issues as she went through F-15 training, and I flew with several very capable female pilots in my career. The brass said that rights of the female to serve outweighed the potential changes to the culture of the unit. I didn't quit the AF...I saluted smartly and did my best to not only accept the change but to adapt and support the policy as much as I could.
However...put a woman in a unit or location and it is "different". We can work around the issues, find a way to make it work, etc but denying that somehow a more "enlightened" policy undoes years and years of biology and our own human characteristics is fallacy. People of the opposite sex are going to be attracted to each other at times, especially when emotionallly vunerable or stressed. Combat will exacerbate our own nature. This is just a new issue we'll have to work through as a fighting force...
08-04-2008, 04:52 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Hawg,
Not arguing. I rolled with the changes, and as I mentioned...not only "accepted" them but did my best to support them.
As for your second point...I agree. Whether its a female voice on a radio or the example you gave...I know it does seem to chap some of them pretty bad.
I was into my second squadron when Widnall allowed the change. It was several years before I actually worked with a female fighter pilot, and I never had one directly in my squadron. However, talking to my bros who did they claimed it was not a huge deal and they seemed to adapt quickly. The guys who were the biggest defenders and champions of the gals where the guys who had gone through the training pipeline with them. It certainly wasn't "abnomal" to them, it was "ops normal". So your point on squadron chemistry is probably spot on. If its what you know...its what you know!
I also know that the main thing I hated about TDY to the sandbox was family separation. For those who have a spouse over there deployed with them (and I've heard of this happening) I guess you could argue its a morale increaser...but I guess it also imparts its own kind of stress.
Kudos to you and yours for making it work.
Not arguing. I rolled with the changes, and as I mentioned...not only "accepted" them but did my best to support them.
As for your second point...I agree. Whether its a female voice on a radio or the example you gave...I know it does seem to chap some of them pretty bad.
I was into my second squadron when Widnall allowed the change. It was several years before I actually worked with a female fighter pilot, and I never had one directly in my squadron. However, talking to my bros who did they claimed it was not a huge deal and they seemed to adapt quickly. The guys who were the biggest defenders and champions of the gals where the guys who had gone through the training pipeline with them. It certainly wasn't "abnomal" to them, it was "ops normal". So your point on squadron chemistry is probably spot on. If its what you know...its what you know!
I also know that the main thing I hated about TDY to the sandbox was family separation. For those who have a spouse over there deployed with them (and I've heard of this happening) I guess you could argue its a morale increaser...but I guess it also imparts its own kind of stress.
Kudos to you and yours for making it work.
08-04-2008, 08:36 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
[quote=Albief15;438162]Hawg,
The guys who were the biggest defenders and champions of the gals where the guys who had gone through the training pipeline with them. It certainly wasn't "abnomal" to them, it was "ops normal".
Some of the first female Naval fleet tactical aviators went through training in my class back in '93. The problem with it then is that there was special treatment given and it only served to anger those who already had a problem with the integration. The infamous 'Pilot B' (from the Kara Hultgreen fiasco) was a few classes behind me. She had done well in training but struggled in the TomCat. Now days - I see no difference in the quality of training or the expectations required of the female pilots.
One of the ebst 'officers' that we have had come through lately was a young 1stLt Marine. She was definitely the one that you wanted on duty when something went wrong (I'm not speaking of in the air here - but more akin to that 0300 call that there is a problem out in town for instance)
USMCFLYR
The guys who were the biggest defenders and champions of the gals where the guys who had gone through the training pipeline with them. It certainly wasn't "abnomal" to them, it was "ops normal".
Some of the first female Naval fleet tactical aviators went through training in my class back in '93. The problem with it then is that there was special treatment given and it only served to anger those who already had a problem with the integration. The infamous 'Pilot B' (from the Kara Hultgreen fiasco) was a few classes behind me. She had done well in training but struggled in the TomCat. Now days - I see no difference in the quality of training or the expectations required of the female pilots.
One of the ebst 'officers' that we have had come through lately was a young 1stLt Marine. She was definitely the one that you wanted on duty when something went wrong (I'm not speaking of in the air here - but more akin to that 0300 call that there is a problem out in town for instance)
USMCFLYR
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