Cooperd0g

Okay so I have made a computerized civilian logbook, but when I upgraded to the new version it screwed up all of my aircraft info because I didn't fill everything out as I should have with regard to these categories. I didn't do it because I didn't know how they related. I am going to start from scratch and see how it goes. Here is what I am thinking, tell me if I am right.

Make Model Type ID
F/A-18 C Multi-Jet (insert buno #)
F/A-18 E Multi-Jet (insert buno #)
F-16 A Single-Jet (insert buno #)

Is this right or what?
Thanks

Adlerdriver

F/A-18 C or E has 2 engines so, yeah - it's multi-engine jet.
F-16 - one engine so.......... you guessed it - single-engine jet.
You can't really be asking this. Is there more to the question?

If you're planning on using this logbook for an airline interview, I'd recommend not trying to log your military time in it. Just use the records the Navy provides as the source of verifying your military flight times. There's too many pitfalls and little to no gain in trying to present military time in a separate logbook. If you have civilian time, keep that in a logbook and don't try to mix the two. Just my .02 but it's worked for me at three airlines.

Cooperd0g

I guess I wasn't clear. Does make = F/A-18? Does model = C? Is type the engine type (which you did answer that part - and I was pretty sure on that part anyway)? Is ID the buno or serial number of the plane (since we don't use N #s)?

I hear what you are saying about possible pitfalls, but what about things like FedEx allowing 0.2 addition to all military flights? How else do I account for that if not by translating everything into another logbook? And computerizing it helps me keep track of how many hours I have in each aircraft also.

Additionally the military doesn't allow you to log aircraft commander (PIC) time during solo flights in the training command, but every FAA guy I have talked to said that is retarded considering you are the only one in the plane, and be default, are the PIC. This does effect me as a jet guy because 1/2 to 2/3s of my jet training hours are solo.

Thanks

Buzz

Dude,

I interviewed at SWA, AirTran, and Delta (hired by AirTran and Delta, no thank you from SWA). I showed up with my civilian logbook from my C152/172 days and the summary page of my AF flight records. All 3 airlines looked at my civilian logbook for about 20 seconds. All they cared about was my AF flight records summary sheet. You do NOT need to waste your time with typing for weeks on end into a logbook program, a galactic waste of time (SWA and Delta required me to bring my flight records summary sheet). I'm sure the Navy/Marine Corps has some sort of flight records summary print out, don't they?

I'm not sure what you mean about the military not allowing you to log PIC in the training command, I sure did (all of the AF flight records show your time as "Primary" or "Instructor" or "Examiner" for us single seat folk). Even if your Navy records do not show you as the PIC you can CERTAINLY claim all of that time as PIC on every airline application you fill out.

Also, doesn't your summary sheet list the total number of mil sorties you flew in each aircraft? Just take your total sorties x.2 or x.3 and you are good to go.

Any other Navy/Marine dudes out there? Inputs on my opinion of wasting hours upon hours on a logbook program?

Good luck bro,

Buzz

Cooperd0g

Buzz, the Navy/Marine Corp team only recently (like in the last two years) started keeping computer records of everyone's flights. That means that 90% of my stuff is solely in my paper log book. They don't even go back and plug the old stuff in, they just start wherever you are and put in a baseline flight time from what you had before they started the computer stuff. And not all units are even using the program nor are they transfering the information when you change units, like it has the capability to do. So, no, I have no flight summary like you are talking about. Only what I make from my log book. And I guess I shouldn't have said "the military," but the Navy and Marines don't let you log aircraft commander time while in training. Like you said though I won't have a hard time claiming that as PIC. The FAA guy I talked to about that couldn't believe the Navy didn't count that as aircraft commander.

It isn't the end of the world, Navy guys get hired all the time so they work it out somehow. I'll talk to my buddies who are already in, but I wanted clarification on the make/model thing and this has kind of morphed since then.

RickyBobby

Coop:

I dicked around with several "logbook programs" before building a spreadsheet with Excel. None of them provided the flexibility to do all the things you listed (seperate time by Type, Model, Series, Single Engine, Multi Engine, ME CL thrust, Turbine, or however else you want to track it), that's why I went back to ole faithful. I'm nearly computer illiterate and I was able to make it work for me. If you're interested I can send you a skeleton of what I use.

RB

Cooperd0g

No, but thanks RickyBobby. I like my computer log book quite well actually.

Still looking for the military version of make/model/type/id to answer my original question.

TBoneF15

Try
Make: McDonnell Douglas
Model: F-18
etc.

Just like it would be...
Make: Cessna
Model: 172
etc.

Cooperd0g

Okay, I was thinking about that too, but that is where I wasn't sure how it compared. So then no differetciation between seires like C/D/E etc.

Thanks TBone

Adlerdriver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooperd0g

I guess I wasn't clear. Does make = F/A-18? Does model = C? Is type the engine type (which you did answer that part - and I was pretty sure on that part anyway)? Is ID the buno or serial number of the plane (since we don't use N #s)?

I guess you would use MD as the make and F-18C as the model. Tail number or whatever you call it in the Navy would go where the N number goes. Honestly though, I really don't think that kind of BS is going to matter.

You've got to have something created by the Navy that shows some kind of record of your flight time. Even if the computerized stuff only started a few years ago, doesn't it still show some kind of total including the basic info from your "uncomputerized" record? I would bring whatever records you kept before the computerized age and whatever official record the Navy now provides. There is no point in recreating your old record in a new log book.

I put a summary sheet in the front of my records detailing the calculations that resulted in the total time and PIC time I entered on my resume and/or the company's application I was applying to. If you're adding .2 per sortie, show that math along the with total sortie count from your record.

The PIC thing as a student is a gray area. It really doesn't matter what the military rule is - the more important rule is what the airline you're applying to considers PIC time. All my military student time solo or dual never was included in my MP/FP (PIC) total in my USAF flight records. It was just listed as student time.

My advice is take the most conservative route you can when determining what part of your flight time the airline you're applying to will consider PIC time. It won't be the same for every airline and the FAR definition of PIC doesn’t matter.

As an example, UAL only wanted PIC time as a pilot (i.e. AFTER you received your wings). So, ANY student time (even solo) was not PIC in their eyes. They also only wanted PIC time when you were the pilot signing for the aircraft. So, even though I had my wings and I was in the front seat of an Eagle when I was going through "the RAG" (to use Navy speak), when I was in a two-seater with an IP in the trunk doing my first AAR - that was not PIC time to UAL. The IP was the PIC and signing for the aircraft.

Fedex has the same rule about signing for the aircraft. They want you to be the PIC of record, not just sole manipulator. I guess you could take that logic one step further and say, as a student, you're not the PIC of record since you're flying as a not yet qualified student pilot. Like I said, it's gray. It's not what's in the FARs, it's what Fedex, UAL or whoever decides they want to count.

I don't know how much solo training command time (student solo) you have in hard numbers but it's probably not worth entering a gray area that you have to defend in your interview. A few hundred hours one way or the other aren't going to make a big difference.

There are plenty of horror stories about dudes being told "thanks for playing" and shown the door over log book issues and perceived attempts at deception in this area. Pressing the limits just isn't worth it.

Good Luck