CFI/II & MEI credit for Mil IP school grads...
12-11-2007, 10:05 AM
#31
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Ok, I called the FAA number on that link and the guy said as of right now it looks like it will be approved. The wording should say that if you are or ever were a military instructor then you are qualified to take a knowledge test and then be designated a CFI. I didn't ask him if you would be a CFI, CFII or MEI. He said right now the rule is scheduled to come out in Sept 08.
12-11-2007, 11:12 AM
#32
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
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Posts: 1,899
Ok, I called the FAA number on that link and the guy said as of right now it looks like it will be approved. The wording should say that if you are or ever were a military instructor then you are qualified to take a knowledge test and then be designated a CFI. I didn't ask him if you would be a CFI, CFII or MEI. He said right now the rule is scheduled to come out in Sept 08.
Thanks for calling, promising news for many of us.
12-11-2007, 07:22 PM
#34
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: The IPA EB speaks for me
Posts: 529
Guessing CFI, MEI, CFII for most- I heard a jet contracting firm started this movement- also an argument for an ATP based on Mil experience again....
I have a CFIG, so I did the fundamentals of Instructing way back, and I hold an ATP-this would be a swell way to add some ratings w/o much add'l effort or study- Floatplanes and Helo's are where I'd like to spend my VA bennies, not on CFI certs!
I have a CFIG, so I did the fundamentals of Instructing way back, and I hold an ATP-this would be a swell way to add some ratings w/o much add'l effort or study- Floatplanes and Helo's are where I'd like to spend my VA bennies, not on CFI certs!
12-12-2007, 10:18 AM
#35
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12-13-2007, 02:18 AM
#36
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: The IPA EB speaks for me
Posts: 529
Hacker,
Oh, ya got me- this board is the only place to get aviation info. I forgot. Glad you have time to monitor page by page- why don't you volunteer to moderate... Learn common courtesy BEFORE you leave active duty. For years on and off different Wings and squadrons and commands have had diffent levels of success setting up ATP ratings in mil aircraft and contracted simulators. The CFI shouldn't be very different- it's just better that it's done on a rule/nationwide basis, not FSDO by FSDO as they are all flavored differently over the years.
This is just a rating- not an ability to teach- which in the miltary means talk and fly. Some folks may earn the paper and not be decent instructors- we'll see next year maybe...
Oh, ya got me- this board is the only place to get aviation info. I forgot. Glad you have time to monitor page by page- why don't you volunteer to moderate... Learn common courtesy BEFORE you leave active duty. For years on and off different Wings and squadrons and commands have had diffent levels of success setting up ATP ratings in mil aircraft and contracted simulators. The CFI shouldn't be very different- it's just better that it's done on a rule/nationwide basis, not FSDO by FSDO as they are all flavored differently over the years.
This is just a rating- not an ability to teach- which in the miltary means talk and fly. Some folks may earn the paper and not be decent instructors- we'll see next year maybe...
05-05-2008, 08:04 AM
#37
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 288
I'm going to go against the crowd on this one. Prior to the USAF I flew commercially, earned my CFI, CFII & MEI. I worked as a flight instructor and Part 135 Pilot. In the USAF I was an instructor on two airframes. From my experience, the USAF would not prepare someone to take on the roles/responsibilities of a civil CFI. While my knowledge of the type/quality of training is limited to the USAF I suspect all the branches are the same.
How many USAF pilots know what FAR Part 61 or 91 is? From my 10+ years in, I can attest to the fact that not many do. Unless they have prior civil time, I would venture to say that almost none could tell you what they were. Heck, most have not even read the AIM.
Do you really think the average USAF instructor knows what a student pilot must accomplish prior to solo? What the limitations on that student pilot are? As a CFI, how do you sign off a person to solo anyway? How do you endorse a logbook for repeated solo X-C flight? What does a person that has never flown a prop airplane know about the finer points of the aerodynamics behind a lazy-8 or chandelle in a piston airplane. How many USAF pilots have been into a good old fashion uncontrolled airport. 99% of the guys I flew with didn't even know the difference between CTAF and UNICOM. For the multi-engine guys out there, how many USAF pilots know what the blue line on the airspeed indicator is for? When was the last time the average USAF pilot gave a Vmca demo in a piston twin? How many guys know what the PTS is? How many people that have only flown turbine planes, know what color 100LL is? or what water looks like in it? What are the civil istrument currency requirments? How long is a CFi ticket good for? How do you keep it current? What is an 8710? How do you fill one out properly? How much PIC time do you need in a specific model of twin before you can instruct in it?
Don't even get me started on the "Fundementals Of Instruction". My first airframe taught nothing about HOW TO TEACH, and in C-17 IP school, you get a 30 min CBT lesson on something similar to FOI, but nobody takes it seriously and most fast forward through it. I suspect other airframes are similar.
There are so many problems and questions would come up. Would the military guy get a CFI, CFII, or MEI? All of them?
Now, I know a lot of you have a Private license since the USAF went to the program of paying guys to get that ticket, but there are loads of guys that joined prior to that that. I had a bunch of guys in my pilot training class that had zero flight time, and went to fly fighters. What do you think they know about carb ice?
This has nothing to do with who is a better pilot or what type of training is best. It has everything to do with the fact that there is so much more that a person that has been through a civil CFI course knows about CIVIL flying. To give every military IP a civil CFI ticket is asking for trouble, both for the IP and the student.
A lot of people will say that they never intend to use the ticket to teach private pilots, or people other than their friends...that's great, but the fact is, if you are going to get issued a ticket you need to have all the skills/knowledge associated with that ticket. Your ticket does not come with a limitation on it that says "Holder of certificate can only give Biennial Flight Reviews to his best friend". Oh, by the way, how many USAF guys know what the requirments of a BFR are?...next to none, I would say.
Those of you that think you are deserve a CFI ticket because you were a military IP are blindly arrogant as to your skills and knowledge. The phrase, you don't know what you don't know, sums it up perfectly. There is so much more to being a civil CFI than just teaching someone how to take off and land, or fly a engine out ILS. heck, that's the easy part. The devil is in the details, the paperwork, the regulations, of which, the average USAF IP has never been trained in.
How many USAF pilots know what FAR Part 61 or 91 is? From my 10+ years in, I can attest to the fact that not many do. Unless they have prior civil time, I would venture to say that almost none could tell you what they were. Heck, most have not even read the AIM.
Do you really think the average USAF instructor knows what a student pilot must accomplish prior to solo? What the limitations on that student pilot are? As a CFI, how do you sign off a person to solo anyway? How do you endorse a logbook for repeated solo X-C flight? What does a person that has never flown a prop airplane know about the finer points of the aerodynamics behind a lazy-8 or chandelle in a piston airplane. How many USAF pilots have been into a good old fashion uncontrolled airport. 99% of the guys I flew with didn't even know the difference between CTAF and UNICOM. For the multi-engine guys out there, how many USAF pilots know what the blue line on the airspeed indicator is for? When was the last time the average USAF pilot gave a Vmca demo in a piston twin? How many guys know what the PTS is? How many people that have only flown turbine planes, know what color 100LL is? or what water looks like in it? What are the civil istrument currency requirments? How long is a CFi ticket good for? How do you keep it current? What is an 8710? How do you fill one out properly? How much PIC time do you need in a specific model of twin before you can instruct in it?
Don't even get me started on the "Fundementals Of Instruction". My first airframe taught nothing about HOW TO TEACH, and in C-17 IP school, you get a 30 min CBT lesson on something similar to FOI, but nobody takes it seriously and most fast forward through it. I suspect other airframes are similar.
There are so many problems and questions would come up. Would the military guy get a CFI, CFII, or MEI? All of them?
Now, I know a lot of you have a Private license since the USAF went to the program of paying guys to get that ticket, but there are loads of guys that joined prior to that that. I had a bunch of guys in my pilot training class that had zero flight time, and went to fly fighters. What do you think they know about carb ice?
This has nothing to do with who is a better pilot or what type of training is best. It has everything to do with the fact that there is so much more that a person that has been through a civil CFI course knows about CIVIL flying. To give every military IP a civil CFI ticket is asking for trouble, both for the IP and the student.
A lot of people will say that they never intend to use the ticket to teach private pilots, or people other than their friends...that's great, but the fact is, if you are going to get issued a ticket you need to have all the skills/knowledge associated with that ticket. Your ticket does not come with a limitation on it that says "Holder of certificate can only give Biennial Flight Reviews to his best friend". Oh, by the way, how many USAF guys know what the requirments of a BFR are?...next to none, I would say.
Those of you that think you are deserve a CFI ticket because you were a military IP are blindly arrogant as to your skills and knowledge. The phrase, you don't know what you don't know, sums it up perfectly. There is so much more to being a civil CFI than just teaching someone how to take off and land, or fly a engine out ILS. heck, that's the easy part. The devil is in the details, the paperwork, the regulations, of which, the average USAF IP has never been trained in.
That’s why there is a FAA mandated requirement for a knowledge test. Every FAR/AIM item you pointed out could easily be committed to memory.
Instruction on the other hand is a different thing. I’ve been “instructed” by CFI/II/MEI civilians who knew the books but hadn’t the faintest idea of what instruction is. Telling a guy with over 2000 hours that he is off his ALT by 200’ is absurd. A 2000 hour guy knows he’s off by 200’. What he need is information on how to make that particular airframe fly how he needs it to... i.e. “Try setting the piper about one half a dot above the horizon, then about an extra 200lbs of torque on the bottom engine when you go into the 45 deg AOB turns.”
Most military instructors have instructional capabilities that far exceed the 400 hour CFI/II/MEI civilian who’s trying to build enough hours to get that Regional job.
(On a side note, my “instructor” got fired about a month later when he let his student do a gear up landing. Guess that FAR/AIM knowledge didn’t help him there!)
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