limelight

I disagree tomgoodman, I think the washout rates of today are far lower than they used to be. In my class, 05-11, there was only one person who did not finish. He "showed up in blues" before our first flight. Everyone else "washed back" but eventually graduated. There was a Navy student at Vance (not in my class) while I was there who had numerous (more than 3) 86 (elimination) rides and to my knowledge finally quit. I think the Air Force and Navy are pandering to the weak students, but at the same time, rightfully so, challenging the top performers. The wide spectrum of students amazes me. I think it's relatively easy to merely graduate from UPT but rather difficult to rank in the top 3. In the end the weaker students go to the less desirable airframes but at what cost? Every aiframe has a demanding mission. The whole time I was at pilot training, it was often said that the worst students go to helicopters (in the air force). I absolutely couldn't believe this. I was lucky enough to fly with an Army helicopter instructor a few months ago and was blown away at the skill and finesse it took to fly a helo well. I think the UPT bases should call a spade a spade and not be afraid to wash people out as it seems they are currently.

tomgoodman

Limelight,

I didn't know that the washout rate had dropped so much -- was just going by Hercdriver's stat of graduating 27 of 66, but now I see that that was 20 years ago. Do new students arrive already qualified in the T-41 (or equivalent)? That might partially explain it, since we lost a lot of our washouts in the T-41 and most of the rest before T-37 solo. If a guy made it that far, he would probably graduate eventually. I know the two-track system changed a lot of things.

Slice

The split track system changed all of that...weak swimmers who would have been washed out are allowed to slide by since they will go to 'crew' airframes. There were at least 3 in my class who should have been washed out and did not. No way they would have soloed the 38 and live to tell about it.

limelight

Seriously, you think the Air Force, or any service, for that matter, is letting weak students "slide by" because they'll be going to crew aircraft? I've only flown one aircraft post pilot training, but you can't be serious. Let's face it, yes fighters may be more difficult in a few aspects, but from the vast array of missions in Tac Airlift, there simply is no room for "sliders". We fly low level (340 knots at 300 feet), formation airdrop, formation AR, and NVG assault landings (landing a 500K+ lb aircraft on a runway 90 feet wide and 3500 feet long) I can assure you there's no room for weakness in the crew aircraft I've flown.

HercDriver130

I think years ago.... and yes I graduated over 20 years ago from UPT....Willy 87-03. I think years ago, they brought in MORE studs....with the intention of washing out a large percentage. The competition was so stiff for a FAR rating in my class that i was one of the top TTB guys and had 3 excellents and 3 goods on my checkrides... most of the FAR guys were 4 and 5 excellent guys...PLUS and we were told upfront....attitude counted...... certainly we had guys who washed due to performance...probably half of those we lost.. but the other half ... good pilots....at least from the studs side of things.... but thier attitude sucked... or they didnt fit in.... IP input was VERY VERY big in those days....maybe it still is I dont know, but I can tell you that If the IP's liked you it certainly made things a bit easier.

FWIW....our training wing commander TOLD us to expect 40-50% washout the first day of training.... hence my asertation that they were weaning the weak ...even if they could fly.... Fact is we had ONE female who washed out and shouldnt have... and we had ONE female who should have never been let near an aircraft and was. We also had a guy whos dad was a AF general.... fact was that guy could fly and people just had to have something to talk about. I flew form with Pat a few times and he was damn good.

I see the value of the track system... but some of my fondest memories are of flying the Talon solo.... and well on my Instrument check ( final ride in a t-38 for me. ) I had passed the ride with all required elements on the flight from Willy to March AFB..so the EP let me ride in the back seat... and just enjoy the ride home....It was the first time in a year I had flown without pressure.. an man it felt good.

Hacker15e

Hate to say it, but it's true -- SUPT has regularly "kicked the can" of below average students on to the next guy. You may not see the "weak sister to a crew jet" phenomenon from where you're sitting, but I can assure you that it is something that has actually happened...and probably continues to happen.

I used to work the FEBs at Moody for the IFF washouts. Many, many, many times during training crossflow conferences, it came out that weak swimmers were allowed to make it through SUPT because they knew "IFF would wash them out if they REALLY weren't good enough". I heard plenty of similar testimony from T-38 FAIPs who were frustrated that students were allowed to be reinstated by the Commanders Review Board process, with the thought that said students would eventually be weeded out by IFF and FTU, and through the FEB process they would be sent to an ACC heavy.

SUPT needs to take care of its own mess...and I feel that it will starting with the T-6-centric SUPT starting in FY09. Once there is a Form 8 checkride required to pass T-38s, there will be a different level of quality control of graduates.

Sputnik

I can only speak from the experience of a Tweet FAIP back in the late 90s, washout rates were 14% if I remember right. They went up 98-99 when the T3s were grounded and we started getting guys who'd never flown anything before. I had also heard the 50% washout rate of the 80s. Talking to crusty sim instructors and graybeards, the common take wasn't so much that standards had been lowered as that the AF was more willing to work with you to get you to standard. Prime example being airsickness. My understanding (I wasn't there clearly) was in 80s you got a few chances to get over being airsick, then you were out (true?). Whereas nowadays they have pretty intensive programs to help people through it. There were guys who probably shouldn't have slid by, but there are people who somehow, at the end of the day, manage to rise to the occasion on checkride day.

Hacker, one of the minor legends of the C17 community (not in a good way) was a guy who washed out of Seymour and somehow managed to end up in a 17. I think he's now living in a broken down van by the river, but here's one mobility pilot saying "thanks" to ACC for that one.

Limelight there have been pilots in our community who have never been allowed to upgrade to AC. And there are more than shouldn't have been. If you haven't met one, consider yourself fortunate, but it happens.

limelight

When did everyone in the Air Force become so afraid to hurt someone's feelings? When did we become so afraid to give someone a good a$$ chewing? Why does the Marine Corps seem to have this figured out but we don't?

Slice

It's a numbers game...ask any FAIP or former UPT IP how difficult is has been to wash studs out in the last decade or so. It's not a slam toward heavy drivers.

limelight

No offense taken, the mentality just blows me away. Flying is way too serious business to let weakness slide. Cutting training hours, increased "additional duties", more complex and challenging missions all the time, and to top it off pandering to weak studs. Something's gonna give.