AFPirate

Has anyone here tried to Palace Chase and been denied? Furthermore, and more to the point, what type of repercussions have you seen after "showing your cards" and not getting the PC...365 remotes? office duty?
I'd love to hear anything out there...PM me if you'd like.
Thanks fellas!

C-17 Driver

How many years of retainability do you have left? If you are 4 yrs into your 10 year commitment and try to palace chase, then you are hanging it out there to get stepped on. The C-17 on paper is "fully manned." But you know as I do, that it isn't. Additionally, there is a reason that 11M AFSC people were exempted from VSP.

Your commander and wing commander cannot stop the paperwork from leaving the base and going to AFPC. It is the airlift guy at AFPC who makes the call. I would recommend writing him an email and asking him the question. If he says it will likely be approved, then go ahead and submit it. If he laughs at you, then you are better off waiting a little while longer before you submit it.

Legally, they can't do any reprisal if you submit palace chase. In reality, what you mentioned is exactly what they will do once you show your cards. They will save their top rankings for someone else. They might give you the shaft and you will think it is because you unsuccessfully tried to Palace Chase, but they can come back and say it was "needs of the Air Force."

My advice is you find out what the Airlift guy at AFPC says before you even print up the paperwork.

asupilot

In my personal experience, the Air Force is "passive-aggressive." There will be repercussions...not obvious ones, but ones just beneath the surface that will most certainly have an adverse effect you. The "system" makes me sick. Aside from the bros I actually fly with, I don't trust or respect anyone. Your community/situation may be different.

Spartan07

I'm not trying to pick an inter-service rivalry fight here but how in the heck can the Air Force as a whole be an effective fighting force with a system that makes one of it's fighting members feel that way?

None of the branches are perfect and there were times that I got a really strong feeling that one of my higher ups didn't exactly have my best interest at heart, but in general I trusted my life to everyone in my chain of command from my platoon sergeant all the way up to the Commandant. And it's a good thing I felt that way too because there were a lot of times that I really had to depend on the capabilities of other Marines that weren't in my unit.

Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm not trying to say one branch is better than the other, and I know none of the branches are perfect, but the fact that almost every airman I have -ever- talked to has said that they do not trust anyone in the AF except for some of the guys working next to them kind of makes me sick...

Riddler

I know you're not trying to pick a fight. I have a very close friend (since 2nd grade) who is now flying F-18s at Oceana. There are some obvious differences between the AF and Navy and this is one of them.

These are my opinions and observations, but I think many will agree. It's not really a factor of not being able to trust your boss. It's the promotion system that is so f'd up. Flying records don't matter. Job performance doesn't matter. Promotion potential is what matters.

So, there's a LOT of people who play the system, and there's a LOT of people who can't fly worth a crap, but they volunteer for every additonal duty known to mankind. They work the Wing Commander's change of command ceremony. They organize some 4-star's visit to the base. And they let their boss know how much they want to be a squadron commander. So when it's time for the boss to rack & stack everyone, he can't go to the promotion board and demand that they promote Capt X because he had the shortest upgrade time to IP, or because he's the most respected pilot/leader, or he has the most combat experience. The AF promotion board stresses "officership" over duty performance, so that we theoretically don't get into fights in trying to say that a guy flying a C-17 medevac mission is more important than an F-16 CAS mission versus a Civil Engineer rebuilding some runway in Iraq. Instead, it's the additional duties (since they're the common ground between all jobs) that get you promoted, since the promotion system essentially assumes that everyone does a great job at their primary duty (otherwise, their Wing Commander wouldn't recommend them for promotion).

So back to the original topic. If you're a guy with 2 years left on active duty, and you tell your boss that you want to get out, he's most likely NOT going to try and outwardly screw you. HOWEVER, he will now focus his efforts into "grooming" those left remaining so that he can help them get promoted. And you get screwed... he can only give so many "Definately Promote" ratings, and if he thinks you're leaving in a year or so, why waste one on you? Give it to the guy who wants to stay in.

Yes, it is dysfunctional. Why do you think so many guys are getting out? I'd love to stay another 10 years, but I can't imagine more of this "do more with less" attitude in which some Airman's primary duty becomes yet another of my additional duties. I can't imagine UPS making money if it required its pilots to do clerical work.

Riddler

Riddler

Look at the matrix on the AFPC website. If your year group & AFSC is an overage, you'll get it approved. If you're a 0 or negative, you won't get it.

Riddler

asupilot

Spartan07, it is my own humble opinion that the Air Force started down the precipitous slope when the dual track career options disappeared. We only have one career path these days...the command track. Gone are the days were a guy could fly for 20 years and retire happy as a Major. Now it's nothing more than an ass-kissing, back-stabbing political game. Oh, and if you just want to fly you’re an ********* to your commander (“you mean you don’t want to be just like me?”). No I don’t want to be like you…I want to be an expert aviator. Look at the bios of some of these guys…gone are the days where a commander had thousands of hours. They’re too busy climbing the “ladder.” I’ve grown very tired of “leaders” telling me what’s “good for my career.” How about you let me decide what’s good for me…there’s a novel idea. Everyone knows that if you fly for 20 straight years the likelihood of making O-5 is greatly decreased. And you know what…some dudes are actually OKAY with that. With few exceptions, you know what the bros and I call O-5s and above...POLITICIANS. People would rather send a ****ing e-mail than get up, walk five feet, and have a face-to-face. I guess it's easier to be a prick in an e-mail. The whole experience is shaping up to be BS...and I'm not just a complaining b!tch because I didn't "get my way." Dudes are BAILING at record numbers, especially now as some airlines begin to move. And yes, even patches. There is no 100% solution in life, but SWA sure seems better than this. In 6 years in I have never seen morale this low. Of course when we fly its all business and EVERYONE gets the job done. But when you land, dudes are despondent at best. No one seems to be able to make any sense of it. People in positions of influence acknowledge a problem, but never do anything to really fix it...they're too worried about that next promotion or assignment. I have yet to see an O-5 or above make any move that wasn't the "safe" play, regardless of whether it was good for the unit or dudes. Military flying is a dream if you get to, however, Guard or Reserves...Guard or Reserves...that's all I'm going to say about that.

AFPirate

You guys are right on the money. I've been echoing your sentiments to my family about why I'm doubting an air force career. (And yes, what is up with the patch nazis!?! Sheesh!)

Riddler, my AFSC/yr group is 0. The folks at my local separations office say that I can still apply, and that although we did just have a C-17 IP get disapproved, they have had a few Palace Chase packages get approved.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and if only I had known about the AFR/ANG.

Thanks for your inputs...I am thinking about trying to contact the functional at AFPC who would be the final say on my package. Perhaps he can give me a little insight.

Peace.

zondaracer

I'm glad someone finally had the nuts to say and confirm what I had felt from the beginning. My AFSC has an overage but my year group is is 0... i hope i have a chance.

I have a friend who did palace chase last year, and after he got accepted, he ask his commander for support on something, I cant remember what it was, and his commander said "why would I waste any resources on you? You are a dead soldier to me." Then when he got to his new guard unit, they asked him if he was force shaped out for poor performance, but he volunteered out.

C-17 Driver

ASU Bone pilot,

Nice thoughts. Here is a question I ask a lot of folks when they are looking to stay in or get out. Look around at your squadron/Ops Group and count the number of Lt Cols that you would consider good leaders and want as your formation lead. The usual answer is less than 5. I imagine it is the same at your base. Then I ask the same question and change it to what pilots on the reserve side would you consider a good leader and want as your wingman/formation lead. The answer is considerably different. What's my point you may ask? Most, not all, of what you would call 'bro's are getting out to the reserves/ANG to fly because active duty doesn't let pilots be pilots for 20 years. Before anyone gets upset, I am not making a generalization. There are still some great guys that are staying on and I wish them the best of luck, but IMHO, they are greatly outnumbered.

Case(s) in point:

1. The current wing/cc at a major C-17 base in the southeast, when he was a squadron commander back in 99-01, grounded his pilots when they put their separation papers in. Yep, boots on the ground. Riddler was around for this and he could shed more light on it.

2. Another squadron commander example. This Lt Col volunteered to deploy as he squadron was SHUTTING DOWN leaving some major decisions to be made by a relatively young D.O. Apparently, the deployment box needing to be checked was more important than taking care of the people when the squadron needed leadership about out of cycle assignments. Very unhappy people. BTW, this commander was a fast mover. He was trying to get jump orders for when he was deployed because he had not met his flying gates yet!!! Can you believe that, a flying Lt Col, in command of a squadron, not having met his gates yet! I know captains with more total time then he had.

This is just 2 examples in my small world. And of course, I can't stress enough that there are still some great leaders out there. My previous squadron commander at Altus was the best boss I have ever worked for. He refused to sign my separation papers until I told him what my plan was to take care of my family. He just wanted to make sure that I had thought it out. He is a great guy and an outstanding pilot. I wish the best of luck to him.