Should I stay or should I go?
07-17-2007, 07:26 PM
#31
China Visa Applicant
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Midfield downwind
Posts: 1,928
Regarding flying for the Reserves:
A good friend of mine flies for an ANG fighter unit. About 4 years ago I was kicking around the idea of getting out at the end of my commitment and doing just what CAL mentioned...flying for the Majors and a ANG/Reserve squadron.
The advice he gave me in one single sentence made me reconsider that:
"You've got your family, your airline job, and your Guard job that you have to do all at the same time. Pick two of them, because you won't be able to do all three very well simultaneously."
The implication, obviously, was that if I was unhappy with how much time I was spending away from home on Active Duty, that the scenario I was thinking of was certainly going to be as bad, if not worse.
His advice? Either make a clean break from the military and just be an airline pilot, or stick with the military until retirement and then move to the Majors.
I certainly can't speak with any experience, and I know that there are a lot of airline guys that fly for the reserves and make it work, but several other pilots from my friend's ANG unit all agreed with the advice.
A good friend of mine flies for an ANG fighter unit. About 4 years ago I was kicking around the idea of getting out at the end of my commitment and doing just what CAL mentioned...flying for the Majors and a ANG/Reserve squadron.
The advice he gave me in one single sentence made me reconsider that:
"You've got your family, your airline job, and your Guard job that you have to do all at the same time. Pick two of them, because you won't be able to do all three very well simultaneously."
The implication, obviously, was that if I was unhappy with how much time I was spending away from home on Active Duty, that the scenario I was thinking of was certainly going to be as bad, if not worse.
His advice? Either make a clean break from the military and just be an airline pilot, or stick with the military until retirement and then move to the Majors.
I certainly can't speak with any experience, and I know that there are a lot of airline guys that fly for the reserves and make it work, but several other pilots from my friend's ANG unit all agreed with the advice.
07-17-2007, 07:35 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: The IPA EB speaks for me
Posts: 529
How about this version of the idea...
Best Option- No commute to either airline or to ANG/AFRES
Second Best Option- No more than 1 commute to either day job or ANG/AFRES. Not both.
Third- Commute to both, but have no family.
Best Option- No commute to either airline or to ANG/AFRES
Second Best Option- No more than 1 commute to either day job or ANG/AFRES. Not both.
Third- Commute to both, but have no family.
07-18-2007, 12:13 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: HMMWV in Iraq
Posts: 328
One thing to consider is that most flying reserve jobs seem to want you there 3-4 even 6 days a month.
Nothing wrong with getting a local non-flying reserve job and just doing the 2-day weekend like everybody else just to get the reserve retirement.
Nothing wrong with getting a local non-flying reserve job and just doing the 2-day weekend like everybody else just to get the reserve retirement.
07-18-2007, 10:45 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 840
Good suggestion. In addition, make sure you have your gates for flight pay for life. Hate to make less for the same time.
07-18-2007, 06:41 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 511
Okay, here's where it starts to get interesting! I ran the same spreadsheet, this time with CAL's numbers from APC.
Assumptions this time were 757 FO to 757 CAPT, along with 72 hour min (all numbers from APC's CAL page). Doesn't include any per diem, which can obviously make a difference.
Same three scenarios, different airline:
TOTAL AGE 32 to 65 EARNINGS:
Scenario 1: 5,046,482.00
Scenario 2: 5,179,853.84
Scenario 3: 4,607,712.00
Hmmmmm....getting much more interesting now.
Assumptions this time were 757 FO to 757 CAPT, along with 72 hour min (all numbers from APC's CAL page). Doesn't include any per diem, which can obviously make a difference.
Same three scenarios, different airline:
TOTAL AGE 32 to 65 EARNINGS:
Scenario 1: 5,046,482.00
Scenario 2: 5,179,853.84
Scenario 3: 4,607,712.00
Hmmmmm....getting much more interesting now.
07-18-2007, 08:37 PM
#36
China Visa Applicant
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Midfield downwind
Posts: 1,928
Interesting numbers Hacker. I know you take some assumptions, but one thing is the Military pay you are looking at is the MAX you can make. The Airline pay you are looking at is the MIN. I think if you take a couple extra trips a year, 401k, profit share and other things....the numbers will not be that close at all.......but you really cant put a price on QOL...IMHO
The military numbers don't include the combat zone tax exclusion income, hostile fire pay, and the host of other stuff that comes along with the deployments a mil pilot will inevitably go on over the course of 10 years. That adds up to some pretty damn good money.
The mil pay number also doesn't take into consideration that you're getting FREE health care while on AD, and pretty cheap health care once retired...all of which you're PAYING out of pocket if you're an airline only guy.
So...you're right, there are plenty of areas of inaccuracy on both sides that I couldn't possibly account for when making a computation -- just too many variables. So, I had to make a certain set of assumptions, and for the sake of a fair comparison, I played the most conservative route on BOTH sides.
Those extra trips, profit sharing, and 401Ks you mention aren't exclusive to the civilian-only guy or the military guy who gets out at 10 years -- they ALSO apply to the military guy who sticks it out till retirement for the 24 years that he's with the airline...he's only "missing" that stuff for the 10 years he's sticking with the military and the other guy has all ready bailed. Works both ways.
You're right that this ultimately comes down to the QOL question, since both routes for all intents and purposes pay the same.
Coming to that answer is the reason I did the spreadhsheet in the first place, because it USED to be that there was NO comparison, either in the areas of pay OR QOL. The airline biz had it hand over fist over the military.
07-19-2007, 06:15 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 880
Wydrow,
Another point of consideration is the added value of the guard/reserves and then the retirement income at 60. From what I have heard (others calculated), it is about $500k-$700 difference by getting out at O-3/O-4 range and then working for the remainder of your time in the reserves. This gap from the AD retirement age until 60 is this cost. At 60 is probably when we all start to break and need good insurance. Also, reserve retirement was pushing for 55 to get the pay but the war put a hold on this. May be something of the future?
As for the airline pay, it may only be getting better in the future. For the guys I do know flying for SWA and CA, they are making more money after 2-3 years than they did on AD. I have a friend who is 9yrs with CA and just hit 30K for the month. He does the minimum drilling time and will bring home 300K and a 2nd year SWA FO who made 11k for June with no drilling time. SWA pay is superior to CA but you can make some coin there too. As we all know, this is no guarantee and will probably change over the next decade one way or the other. Downside to this route is that you will have to work two jobs while retirees can relax more in their entry years and perhaps even fly more and make more too. Most of our SWA pilots have quit the reserves after their first year because they live at base and can pick up more trips for 1.5 pay which they bank and the company will match it in the 401K. They all were under the 10yr AD mark when they got out.
Job security on a good wage that comes with extra pays (deployed), bonuses, great medical and tax free earnings (deployed) is the strong point of the military and has been made stronger by Corporate America's shedding of pensions and medical. This is fact but the price for this is deploying to war. In the air, not so bad, but on the ground is a little dicey. Fun job but can take a toll on the family year after year.
I am leaving the Marine Corps after 11yrs because I will have to do just what Sigtauenus says, deploy on staff for a year of a 2 yr tour. Then get one deploying flying tour again for 3 yrs and then probably staff for my twilight years. I have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a flying billet my last 2 yrs. Plus, I don't want to be 45 and sleeping on the floor at some crash pad in OAK or ORD working towards seniority when my kids are in their early teens and I am gone every weekend and holiday. Word on the street is that kids are harder at these ages than younger (source: old people).
A lot can change in 6 years so I wouldn't focus on that so much as your next job in the AF unless you are getting the early out. Everything is cyclical and timing is a part of life that we can only partly control. Fly like you are getting out, do the best job that you can at your job and then see what is laid out before you so that you can pick what is your best fit when the time comes. I spent 6 mos sweating the same decision as I got a Masters degree here at Corpus; see my point. Either way, the current two options we all have/had is a good place to be compared to other’s.
Good luck.
Another point of consideration is the added value of the guard/reserves and then the retirement income at 60. From what I have heard (others calculated), it is about $500k-$700 difference by getting out at O-3/O-4 range and then working for the remainder of your time in the reserves. This gap from the AD retirement age until 60 is this cost. At 60 is probably when we all start to break and need good insurance. Also, reserve retirement was pushing for 55 to get the pay but the war put a hold on this. May be something of the future?
As for the airline pay, it may only be getting better in the future. For the guys I do know flying for SWA and CA, they are making more money after 2-3 years than they did on AD. I have a friend who is 9yrs with CA and just hit 30K for the month. He does the minimum drilling time and will bring home 300K and a 2nd year SWA FO who made 11k for June with no drilling time. SWA pay is superior to CA but you can make some coin there too. As we all know, this is no guarantee and will probably change over the next decade one way or the other. Downside to this route is that you will have to work two jobs while retirees can relax more in their entry years and perhaps even fly more and make more too. Most of our SWA pilots have quit the reserves after their first year because they live at base and can pick up more trips for 1.5 pay which they bank and the company will match it in the 401K. They all were under the 10yr AD mark when they got out.
Job security on a good wage that comes with extra pays (deployed), bonuses, great medical and tax free earnings (deployed) is the strong point of the military and has been made stronger by Corporate America's shedding of pensions and medical. This is fact but the price for this is deploying to war. In the air, not so bad, but on the ground is a little dicey. Fun job but can take a toll on the family year after year.
I am leaving the Marine Corps after 11yrs because I will have to do just what Sigtauenus says, deploy on staff for a year of a 2 yr tour. Then get one deploying flying tour again for 3 yrs and then probably staff for my twilight years. I have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a flying billet my last 2 yrs. Plus, I don't want to be 45 and sleeping on the floor at some crash pad in OAK or ORD working towards seniority when my kids are in their early teens and I am gone every weekend and holiday. Word on the street is that kids are harder at these ages than younger (source: old people).
A lot can change in 6 years so I wouldn't focus on that so much as your next job in the AF unless you are getting the early out. Everything is cyclical and timing is a part of life that we can only partly control. Fly like you are getting out, do the best job that you can at your job and then see what is laid out before you so that you can pick what is your best fit when the time comes. I spent 6 mos sweating the same decision as I got a Masters degree here at Corpus; see my point. Either way, the current two options we all have/had is a good place to be compared to other’s.
Good luck.
07-19-2007, 09:13 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 511
Well, not really....that number is NOT the max you can make in the military.
The military numbers don't include the combat zone tax exclusion income, hostile fire pay, and the host of other stuff that comes along with the deployments a mil pilot will inevitably go on over the course of 10 years. That adds up to some pretty damn good money.
The mil pay number also doesn't take into consideration that you're getting FREE health care while on AD, and pretty cheap health care once retired...all of which you're PAYING out of pocket if you're an airline only guy.
So...you're right, there are plenty of areas of inaccuracy on both sides that I couldn't possibly account for when making a computation -- just too many variables. So, I had to make a certain set of assumptions, and for the sake of a fair comparison, I played the most conservative route on BOTH sides.
Those extra trips, profit sharing, and 401Ks you mention aren't exclusive to the civilian-only guy or the military guy who gets out at 10 years -- they ALSO apply to the military guy who sticks it out till retirement for the 24 years that he's with the airline...he's only "missing" that stuff for the 10 years he's sticking with the military and the other guy has all ready bailed. Works both ways.
You're right that this ultimately comes down to the QOL question, since both routes for all intents and purposes pay the same.
Coming to that answer is the reason I did the spreadhsheet in the first place, because it USED to be that there was NO comparison, either in the areas of pay OR QOL. The airline biz had it hand over fist over the military.
The military numbers don't include the combat zone tax exclusion income, hostile fire pay, and the host of other stuff that comes along with the deployments a mil pilot will inevitably go on over the course of 10 years. That adds up to some pretty damn good money.
The mil pay number also doesn't take into consideration that you're getting FREE health care while on AD, and pretty cheap health care once retired...all of which you're PAYING out of pocket if you're an airline only guy.
So...you're right, there are plenty of areas of inaccuracy on both sides that I couldn't possibly account for when making a computation -- just too many variables. So, I had to make a certain set of assumptions, and for the sake of a fair comparison, I played the most conservative route on BOTH sides.
Those extra trips, profit sharing, and 401Ks you mention aren't exclusive to the civilian-only guy or the military guy who gets out at 10 years -- they ALSO apply to the military guy who sticks it out till retirement for the 24 years that he's with the airline...he's only "missing" that stuff for the 10 years he's sticking with the military and the other guy has all ready bailed. Works both ways.
You're right that this ultimately comes down to the QOL question, since both routes for all intents and purposes pay the same.
Coming to that answer is the reason I did the spreadhsheet in the first place, because it USED to be that there was NO comparison, either in the areas of pay OR QOL. The airline biz had it hand over fist over the military.
I had to make this decision recently and did many spreadsheets...came up with a lot of different numbers. Depends on what "stuff" you put in like you said. What ultimately did it for me was the QOL. You have some control over what you do and where you work on the outside (sort of). Long deployments and constantly moving (7 times in 11 years) did it for me.....
Still doing the reserve thing though
07-20-2007, 01:22 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 511
Wydrow....good luck in your decision. It was not an easy one for me either.
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