Guard to the Regionals
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,980
I’m a guard F-16 guy and my full time seasoning orders are going to be ending here in a couple months and I’ll be going part time with the guard and looking to transition to the airline world and am seeking some advice and guidance.
In total I’ll have about 850 hours, 500 of which is PIC, and be 4-ship FL qualed when I go part time so obviously I’ll have to spend some time in the Regionals to build my hours for the majors. My ultimate goal is to get to the majors as quickly as I can.
The advice I’ve been given so far is to try and get on with a regional with the quickest upgrade to build my total PIC time.
As of right now that is going to be my plan going forward, in addition to staying sharp in the Viper.
Does anyone else have any additional advice or recommendations? Or something else I could be doing?
Any/all guidance is much appreciated
In total I’ll have about 850 hours, 500 of which is PIC, and be 4-ship FL qualed when I go part time so obviously I’ll have to spend some time in the Regionals to build my hours for the majors. My ultimate goal is to get to the majors as quickly as I can.
The advice I’ve been given so far is to try and get on with a regional with the quickest upgrade to build my total PIC time.
As of right now that is going to be my plan going forward, in addition to staying sharp in the Viper.
Does anyone else have any additional advice or recommendations? Or something else I could be doing?
Any/all guidance is much appreciated
#12
Okay, that makes more sense. So, basically very close to 4 years from start of UPT to finishing up seasoning as a new 4FL. Probably on the faster side than others might experience, but should give someone considering this path an idea of a realistic timeline.
If you can get get hired with a regional and finish training with them by the end of the year, I'd say that would put you on track to have competitive total time in maybe 2 years (mid to late 2020?). If you want to go to a major that's still looking for the magic 1000 TPIC, it may take longer, depending on upgrades and how much ANG flying you can do.
At 500 PIC right now, it's going to be tough to get to 1000 very quickly just in the F-16 alone as a traditional guardsman. Numbers I usually saw as a part timer in a fighter were 150 a year, maybe 200 on a really good one (deployments, etc.). That's going to be especially true if you're going to spend a few months doing Indoc, Initial and IOE at an airline.
Try to find an easy commute if you can't find a local airline job. One leg if possible, same timezone or westbound.
If you can get get hired with a regional and finish training with them by the end of the year, I'd say that would put you on track to have competitive total time in maybe 2 years (mid to late 2020?). If you want to go to a major that's still looking for the magic 1000 TPIC, it may take longer, depending on upgrades and how much ANG flying you can do.
At 500 PIC right now, it's going to be tough to get to 1000 very quickly just in the F-16 alone as a traditional guardsman. Numbers I usually saw as a part timer in a fighter were 150 a year, maybe 200 on a really good one (deployments, etc.). That's going to be especially true if you're going to spend a few months doing Indoc, Initial and IOE at an airline.
Try to find an easy commute if you can't find a local airline job. One leg if possible, same timezone or westbound.
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,527
Vice - all solo time, even while a student, counts as PIC.
Not saying you missed that but just a comment about oversights guys have done before. 750 military fighter + 100 civilian with 500 PIC seems slightly low on PIC ergo my comment about all solo time = PIC.
Low time fighter guys seem to get hired in the 1500 +/- range. IP might REALLY help. Guy I was helping got his IP qual and got called within two weeks. Roughly 1300 fighter + 800 civilian including 121 FO.
Grab a regional and fly your regional brains out. Your TT is probably you're biggest hurdle right now. 1000 hrs 121 FO, and another 100-200 hrs F-16, and I'd think you might be coming onto some radar screens of the hiring folks. At worst it's a three year stint. Cranking out 800+ hrs 121 and 100 hrs F-16 will get you to 3000 hrs in about 2.5 years. Even if it takes that long you'll be hired about 2-3 years younger than the average new hire. Every year you can advance the hiring date is worth over $500,000 in today's dollars at the end of your career. If 2,000 hrs TT and 1,000 hrs military is the trigger you'll hit that in about 1.5 hrs busting your butt at a regional. That's 32-33 yrs old? Younger? You're doing fine. Steady progress and minimize your non-flying time.
Push hard now. Get a regional close to you that allows you to bust a nut at the Guard and the regional. Take a breather once you're at your final job.
Opinion - I'd value 121 time over AD/TDY orders. Your checking on multiple clocks - total time, PIC, military time, TPIC, 121, and ultimately perhaps 121 PIC and IP qual. When do those various clocks cross over at the trigger that gets your resume pulled? I think we're all guessing on that answer. 1,5000 TT and 1,000 hrs military? Is a trigger 500 TPIC or 1,000? With how much TT to trigger an application review? What's the balance/trade off? Going on orders will net 150 hrs a year? That's about three years to get to the bottom new hire guy I've heard about. And he was an IP. Pure regional flying from now on? That would get you to 2,500 TT and no change to your military time in about 1.5 years, or about 2.5 years earlier than the 150 hrs/year pure military flying. If you're getting 200 hrs per year in the F-16 it's two years to match the bottom new hires resume. So it's the balance between the two clocks (jet fighter vs chunks of TT with a 121 job). But if you get a 400 hr F-16 six month deployment? I'd jump on that.
You're in a great spot. Make steady advances. Hate the regional job and hear about a cushy 777 job that would pay more? Stay at the regional. You'll probably lose 300-400 hrs during the time you're switching jobs and getting qualified. IMO that's time wasted since cranking out hours, and not chasing more pay or bigger jets, is what will get your application pulled. $.02
Good luck.
Not saying you missed that but just a comment about oversights guys have done before. 750 military fighter + 100 civilian with 500 PIC seems slightly low on PIC ergo my comment about all solo time = PIC.
Low time fighter guys seem to get hired in the 1500 +/- range. IP might REALLY help. Guy I was helping got his IP qual and got called within two weeks. Roughly 1300 fighter + 800 civilian including 121 FO.
Grab a regional and fly your regional brains out. Your TT is probably you're biggest hurdle right now. 1000 hrs 121 FO, and another 100-200 hrs F-16, and I'd think you might be coming onto some radar screens of the hiring folks. At worst it's a three year stint. Cranking out 800+ hrs 121 and 100 hrs F-16 will get you to 3000 hrs in about 2.5 years. Even if it takes that long you'll be hired about 2-3 years younger than the average new hire. Every year you can advance the hiring date is worth over $500,000 in today's dollars at the end of your career. If 2,000 hrs TT and 1,000 hrs military is the trigger you'll hit that in about 1.5 hrs busting your butt at a regional. That's 32-33 yrs old? Younger? You're doing fine. Steady progress and minimize your non-flying time.
Push hard now. Get a regional close to you that allows you to bust a nut at the Guard and the regional. Take a breather once you're at your final job.
Opinion - I'd value 121 time over AD/TDY orders. Your checking on multiple clocks - total time, PIC, military time, TPIC, 121, and ultimately perhaps 121 PIC and IP qual. When do those various clocks cross over at the trigger that gets your resume pulled? I think we're all guessing on that answer. 1,5000 TT and 1,000 hrs military? Is a trigger 500 TPIC or 1,000? With how much TT to trigger an application review? What's the balance/trade off? Going on orders will net 150 hrs a year? That's about three years to get to the bottom new hire guy I've heard about. And he was an IP. Pure regional flying from now on? That would get you to 2,500 TT and no change to your military time in about 1.5 years, or about 2.5 years earlier than the 150 hrs/year pure military flying. If you're getting 200 hrs per year in the F-16 it's two years to match the bottom new hires resume. So it's the balance between the two clocks (jet fighter vs chunks of TT with a 121 job). But if you get a 400 hr F-16 six month deployment? I'd jump on that.
You're in a great spot. Make steady advances. Hate the regional job and hear about a cushy 777 job that would pay more? Stay at the regional. You'll probably lose 300-400 hrs during the time you're switching jobs and getting qualified. IMO that's time wasted since cranking out hours, and not chasing more pay or bigger jets, is what will get your application pulled. $.02
Good luck.
#14
This isn't necessarily true. We're back to the constant discussion that we revisit about what is PIC defined by FAR or AFI and what airlines choose to call PIC for their application purposes.
When I applied to UAL, they only wanted winged time when you were signing for the aircraft (i.e. ultimately responsible for the flight).
So that ruled out all UPT time including solo and any two-seat flights during FTU with an IP on board.
The point is that your PIC total may differ from one airline to the next depending on what they want you to use as well as if they allow a per sortie conversion factor. They also know how the training programs in the military are conducted. So, if they want PIC time for when you were the responsible pilot signing for the jet, don't submit 100% of your IFF and F-16 time as PIC. They know there are sorties in both programs with IPs on board and regardless of who puts their signature in the forms, on a two-seat sortie, the IP is ultimately responsible for the jet. The small number of hours we're talking about just aren't worth it. Be conservative.
When I applied to UAL, they only wanted winged time when you were signing for the aircraft (i.e. ultimately responsible for the flight).
So that ruled out all UPT time including solo and any two-seat flights during FTU with an IP on board.
The point is that your PIC total may differ from one airline to the next depending on what they want you to use as well as if they allow a per sortie conversion factor. They also know how the training programs in the military are conducted. So, if they want PIC time for when you were the responsible pilot signing for the jet, don't submit 100% of your IFF and F-16 time as PIC. They know there are sorties in both programs with IPs on board and regardless of who puts their signature in the forms, on a two-seat sortie, the IP is ultimately responsible for the jet. The small number of hours we're talking about just aren't worth it. Be conservative.
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,527
Two seat time with an IP is dual. Agreed that it’s not PIC.
But UA didn’t accept solo student time as PIC?
Regardless, fill the time out per the company's standards. It becomes convoluted with multi engine crews with an aircraft commander, IP, SEFE, and mission commander thrown into the mix.
But UA didn’t accept solo student time as PIC?
Regardless, fill the time out per the company's standards. It becomes convoluted with multi engine crews with an aircraft commander, IP, SEFE, and mission commander thrown into the mix.
#16
Two seat time with an IP is dual. Agreed that it’s not PIC.
But UA didn’t accept solo student time as PIC?
Regardless, fill the time out per the company's standards. It becomes convoluted with multi engine crews with an aircraft commander, IP, SEFE, and mission commander thrown into the mix.
But UA didn’t accept solo student time as PIC?
Regardless, fill the time out per the company's standards. It becomes convoluted with multi engine crews with an aircraft commander, IP, SEFE, and mission commander thrown into the mix.
Gets grey if it was mil time AND the military agency doesn't consider it PIC. The FAA generally just accepts the military's definition for the character of flight experience, they don't try to get into the weeds and do their own interpretation.
#17
But.....it isn't civilian time. So, why confuse this particular discussion with that irrelevant statement.
Again - not helping. As I already said, this particular discussion has nothing to do with with what the FAA or the military consider PIC. It's about the fact that each airline may follow their own set of rules when it comes to what they will accept as PIC time.
Someone can go to an interview and try to argue that the FAA said this or the mil regs say that but airline X doesn't care. If they want the time you signed for the jet, then that's what they want .... period.. dot. Deviations from that are going to make one's interview more difficult than it needs to be.
To the OP - don't do your prep in a vacuum. There are plenty of resources out there to help with these kinds of questions. When you get to the point where you're ready to start submitting apps, take the time to sign up with a company like Emerald Coast. Have them advise you on your times and other aspects of how best to fill out your applications, prep for your interview, etc.
Someone can go to an interview and try to argue that the FAA said this or the mil regs say that but airline X doesn't care. If they want the time you signed for the jet, then that's what they want .... period.. dot. Deviations from that are going to make one's interview more difficult than it needs to be.
To the OP - don't do your prep in a vacuum. There are plenty of resources out there to help with these kinds of questions. When you get to the point where you're ready to start submitting apps, take the time to sign up with a company like Emerald Coast. Have them advise you on your times and other aspects of how best to fill out your applications, prep for your interview, etc.
#18
But.....it isn't civilian time. So, why confuse this particular discussion with that irrelevant statement.
Again - not helping. As I already said, this particular discussion has nothing to do with with what the FAA or the military consider PIC. It's about the fact that each airline may follow their own set of rules when it comes to what they will accept as PIC time.
Someone can go to an interview and try to argue that the FAA said this or the mil regs say that but airline X doesn't care. If they want the time you signed for the jet, then that's what they want .... period.. dot. Deviations from that are going to make one's interview more difficult than it needs to be.
To the OP - don't do your prep in a vacuum. There are plenty of resources out there to help with these kinds of questions. When you get to the point where you're ready to start submitting apps, take the time to sign up with a company like Emerald Coast. Have them advise you on your times and other aspects of how best to fill out your applications, prep for your interview, etc.
Again - not helping. As I already said, this particular discussion has nothing to do with with what the FAA or the military consider PIC. It's about the fact that each airline may follow their own set of rules when it comes to what they will accept as PIC time.
Someone can go to an interview and try to argue that the FAA said this or the mil regs say that but airline X doesn't care. If they want the time you signed for the jet, then that's what they want .... period.. dot. Deviations from that are going to make one's interview more difficult than it needs to be.
To the OP - don't do your prep in a vacuum. There are plenty of resources out there to help with these kinds of questions. When you get to the point where you're ready to start submitting apps, take the time to sign up with a company like Emerald Coast. Have them advise you on your times and other aspects of how best to fill out your applications, prep for your interview, etc.
But you're correct, for hiring the airline's policy is of course controlling.
For the ATP, the FAA rules are controlling. Be careful with that if getting your ATP at a regional, regionals are not experts at military flight experience issues so they might accept flight time that they shouldn't (or vice versa). If you're doing anything complicated, research the FAA rules yourself. Have heard of guys having to retake the ATP ride because of discrepancies related to allowable mil time (and also 135 time).
#19
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2018
Posts: 12
Gents, thanks for all the words and advice. This is a totally new process for me so all input is much appreciated.
I’m definitely going to get professional help with putting together my application/hours. The last thing I want to do is be misleading about my hours
I’m definitely going to get professional help with putting together my application/hours. The last thing I want to do is be misleading about my hours
#20
New Hire
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 4
Piggybacking off of this:
I'm a Guard heavy dude coming off of seasoning orders as well. Living in FL, Silver seems like a great gig due to the fact of no commuting... but does turboprop time look bad in the eyes of a Legacy carrier vs having to commute to fly an RJ?
I'm a Guard heavy dude coming off of seasoning orders as well. Living in FL, Silver seems like a great gig due to the fact of no commuting... but does turboprop time look bad in the eyes of a Legacy carrier vs having to commute to fly an RJ?
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