E2CMaster

Is there some sort of ISR Stigma now? When I left active duty, I couldn't even get a call from a Regional (I was a mostly helo guy with about 1200 FW when I left AD) but guys with 2500-3000 FW hours were leaving ISR to go there.. Now I have 3400ish FW and I got called by Southwest last year (not hired) and not a peep out of anywhere else since, to include ACMIs like Atlas and Kalitta.

Apps on file with every major and a few ACMIs (ones where I could live on their pay indefinitely)

UAL, DAL, AA, FedEx, UPS, HAL, JB, Atlas, Kalitta. Not even so much as an email.

Guys are still leaving here for majors, but it's usually the guys who just left the military and needed currency.. Do one or two rotations and bail. It's created a weird grouping where you have the less than two year "Noobs" and 4+ year "ISR Lifers" around here.

That said, there are a few guys who after being broke at the regionals with no calls for 3-5 years have now come here, to not be broke.

If I knew for sure a regional was a .95 Pk to be at a major within 18 months, I could swing it.

It's the 2-3 years at a regional that would break me financially. They are getting better, but still hard to get by if you aren't retired from the military or have a spouse with a decent job.

To the OP, sorry for the threadjack, couldn't think of a better place to respond to Hacker without it being lost in the background noise.

Hacker15e

I don’t think there’s a stigma, no, but I think that it is not nearly as attractive looking on a former mil guy's application than regional training/experience is.

This is total speculation; I am just reporting what I’ve seen with a couple dozen guys over the last three years that I have known and watched make the choice to do one over the other. I made that choice myself (I retired from the AF non-current and in a desk job), and went to the regionals, spent a year there, and moved on to a current career gig at a major.

For some reason, the majors are valuing that 121 time substantially with military dudes who don’t otherwise have “hire me now!”-excellent resumes along with currency/recency.

I know for certain that there is the “able to succeed in a 121 training program” factor with the majors liking to see regional time. Unfortunately military flying doesn’t acutely match the 121 flying environment and we’ve all read/heard horror stories about “that guy” who was hired straight from the military and doesn’t learn/adapt to the 121 world well and is generally both a nightmare for the training department and the Line Check Airmen. Having a 121 training cycle on a former mil guy's application pretty much eliminates that question in the interviewer's mind.

My pure speculation is that there’s a not-so-small “humble enough and dedicated enough to a career at the airlines to swallow their pride and go to a regional” factor involved, too. There’s some purely anecdotal evidence for this, that it shows the airlines that you can stow your rank and turn-and-burn flying experience in the map case and be a happy, functional, safe crew member with a 25-year-old regional Captain. We know from most of the “military vs civilian” threads here on APC and the YouTube videos like the former F-15 F/O hung up on the checklist ("Logbook....") that such prejudice exists, and that this ego piece is a concern for the airlines hiring military dudes. I was certainly asked about it at more than one airline interview, and I'm sure my demeanor in answering the question was a barometer on my attitude and ego.

There are even previous mil dudes who have been able to mend big black marks on their flying regords with time at the regionals. I personally know guys with multiple Q3s (not sure what you Navy guys call checkride failures, but that's a USAF checkride bust), guys who have crashed airplanes and been found at fault, guys who have been grounded by FEB/FNAEB, guys who have Art 15s (Captains Mast for the naval types) or other punishment, etc, and who the majors initially wouldn't touch because of that stuff on their application. All of those guys I know of went to the regionals for 12-24 months, and are now on to major airline jobs within 2 years.

You make an important point with the helo experience: traditionally none of the airlines (even the regionals) have put any value whatsoever on mil helo time. I think all of us former military folks know that this is a really ridiculous bias, and that mil helo guys have a tremendous amount of airmanship and have succeeded in demanding training programs and operational environments, but none the less the airlines have not been interested for decades. Fortunately in the last year the regionals have become desperate enough that they took a chance on recruiting rotorheads and seem to have had a lot of success with them. Unfortunately, that need hasn’t hit the major airline level yet, so former helo bubbas still need things on their application that make them attractive to the majors, and I suspect that 121 time is the foremost of those things. The good news is I think airline career prospects are rapidly improving for former rotorheads, but still not enough to leave the mil and walk directly into a major airline job without other previous 121 experience.

I completely understand the financial risk involved in the decision: I had to support a family of four on a take-home pay during my year at the regionals of about $17,000. Fortunately, as you mention, I had mil retirement to bolster that, but even that was only a total of about 30% of what I’d been making as an O-5, so it was a big monetary hit. Since I was in a desk job before retiring, I knew that there was a stint at the regionals in my future, so I saved up as much $$ as I could during those three years. Based on talking to guys that knew more than me (guys like Albie, who have helped thousands make the transition and have lots of anecdotal data), I financially planned on two years at the regionals, and chose to go to a regional that had a quick Captain upgrade and Captain pay that I could financially handle for several more years if no major airline job was forthcoming.

Yep, I burned through nearly all of my saved cash during the year at the regionals (and my first year pay at the majors)…it hurt to watch that money go away, but that is what I saved it for so it served its purpose.

There is certainly a lot of evidence that going to the regionals is a door that the majors like to see former mil guys walk through, and likely partially because of how much of a risk and challenge it is financially and to the ego. I can't proclaim something like a .95 Pk, nor give a hard-and-fast timeframe, but I think it is a 1-2 year path that has worked for a lot of guys with similar resumes as you.

I don't know your financial situation, but I'd think that with the phat checks from the ISR gig (and it looks like you're still a reservist, too) you could rathole away a couple years' worth of "burn through" savings, and choose a regional whose Captain pay is sufficient enough to sustain you financially for a year or two beyond that if things went sideways. If a "career" job didn't materialize for you within 2 years, I suppose you could always go back to the ISR gig?

Old paradigms are changing rapidly in the airline hiring environment, so maybe this one will change soon, too, but just reporting what I've seen and experienced in the last few years.

E2CMaster

My first year ISR was at a "Less than Reputable" ISR company (Avenge) that cut pay and rotation days, so it took the first year plus at L3 (good pay) to dig out of that hole.

Previous to Avenge I had been laid off three times in the preceding two years, so that's been a hole to dig out of.

I'm in the process of trying to build up a warchest to survive regionals like you did. Does take a long time to dig out a hole after burning all your savings and then getting into debt after being laid off a couple times.


Reserves are basically beer money. I'm in a unit with no planes and no money. So we get 48 Drills and 14 days AT, and not a day more. Guys I know in VR (C-130/C-40) squadrons can make well into the 30s just burning up their IDT drills, and AFTPs, and more if they go on orders.

I'm trying to get into a C-130 unit, but I'm senior as all get out so it's not likely, but I put a package in because I'm at least going to try to get in a C-130 or C-40 until I'm no longer legally allowed to try.

Brillo

Hacker, nice post. Appreciate the time you put into a thoughtful response. Some good perspective.

Otterbox

When I left my ISR gig, I received a letter in the mail from the security department stating my clearance would be held in good standing for two years after my resignation date, so in theory one could run back to the ISR world if the regionals didn't work out (I actually know someone who did this recently... <$900 a paycheck sitting reserve was too stressful for his family to manage and the comfort of a $150k a year job was too much to not go back to).

The paradigm is shifting rapidly indeed- I got a call from a buddy who attrited from the Phase 3 of UPT today saying a regional is going to pay a bunch of money for him to finish out his ratings and put him on a pathway program to fly with them.