Mesa 3.0
06-15-2017, 08:31 PM
#4411
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,021
First of all, all you saying vote no need to stop. Vote the way you feel let your vote express yourself. I read "whole" contract wasn't blown away, but it was not terrible. Pay rates "depending" on where you are in company standing were better than some regionals. It seemed like the ends mean beginning pay and after 15 years of service were definitely on the lower end, but within industry standard by few bucks. The language not that bad. On par with PSAs and Endeavors. I have thier contract. It's definitely NOT top of the line but it's not exactly the bottom either. I think the issue is our pilots wanted to hit a grand slam with this new TA. I know I did. I saw leaks just like every one else and was like no no no. I got it yesterday read it. Asked some questions from it to the union. Got some answers. I'm leaning yes. Not saying im going to vote yes.Before I get the "stand for one" Unity crap. I will vote what I want. It's my vote. But I will stand United with the outcome. Whether it's what I voted for or not. I will stand with collective pilot group. I expect the same from my peers. Don't be like the crying liberals who called foul when Trump won or all the conservatives who wanted to burn the white house down when Obama won. We are better than that. If you like the TA vote yes. If you hate it vote no. When the game is over then stand in unity
06-15-2017, 08:37 PM
#4412
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 105
I've worked in this business since the 80's - both at a major (not a pilot), and in the commuter airlines, which eventually became known as Regional Airlines. Let's just say I've burned a few bridges. Some of them (in retrospect) were my own screw-ups, others because I stood on principle - to the point where it cost me a job. I'm now an FO at Mesa - mostly as a result of past decisions.
One thing I've had LOT of experience with is union contracts - on both sides (labor and management) . I've been following the posts here, and would like to offer my opinion - for what it's worth. I don't have all the answers - but I understand the process better than some.
This first thing I'd like to add is that - as Mesa pilots - we already work for United and American. The legacies CREATED the regionals. Without the legacies, the Regionals don't exist. Without the Regionals, the legacies would be just fine. We allow ourselves to be used as cheap labor for them. We are the kid in Bangladesh who makes Air Jordans for ten cents a day. It was a series of choices that led us here - but here we are. The same can be said for any Regional, but Mesa (and the contract) is the focal point in this discussion.
If any regional pilot thinks ALPA is on their side, I have bad news for you. While I know some of the personnel involved, the higher levels of ALPA do not have the best interests of its pilots in mind. Years (decades, actually) of rhetoric aside, the results speak volumes. Pilots who volunteer, and who do their best to walk-the-walk and make things better, have my utmost respect. What most of them don't realize is that their work is undermined by an archaic process that was designed to benefit a certain group. WE ARE NOT THAT GROUP.
Today, the Regionals move somewhere between 50-60% of the domestic market in the U.S. That means the legacies (and their lapdogs in the affected unions) have figured out a way to pay a HUGE percentage of the pilots who move their passengers only a fraction of the wages they pay their own mainline pilots. Mainline pilots, through a series of bad decisions have helped to create this artificial line between Regionals and Mainline. Both mainline and regional pilots are responsible for this. As long as the perception remains that we (regionals) are somehow inferior to mainline pilots - the gap in wages will stay intact. By too many of us being willing to spend our careers as regional pilots, we've inadvertently increased our marketshare - thus reducing the need for majors to hire those of us wanting to move on. There is still advancement opportunities - but if we played our cards right, there would be a LOT more.
DO NOT allow anyone to tell you that the legacies can't afford to pay us - or would otherwise suffer financial hardships if our pay was closer to that of mainline. In today's economic climate, that's simply not true.
So - to the contract. By not demanding retro pay for the years that Mesa pilots worked without a new contract, you are giving incentive for JO (and all other airline CEO's, for that matter) to never negotiate a contract on time again. Why should they? We are allowing him to get away with years of paying us pathetic wages - with no penalty for dragging his feet for several more years AFTER the life of the contract expires. By not demanding retro pay, we've screwed ourselves going forward. I'm guessing he's getting a percentage of whatever he saves our mainline carriers in overall labor costs. That's money in his pocket - and not yours.
Having worked for other regionals, my opinion is that these are (by far) the worst working conditions I've seen. The benefits are FAR inferior to other regionals (wholly-owned, non wholly-owned, non-union, etc). It's not even close. Quality-of-life in one's schedule is noticeably better at other regionals whom I've worked for. Same with hotels. Reserve is a living hell here at Mesa - in every way - compared to other carriers. Again, my opinion here - take it for whatever it's worth.
Without getting too deep into details (sorry for the long-winded post), this contract is - in my opinion - WAY below what we're worth. I will definitely be a 'no' vote. In fact, this offer has seriously convinced me that it's time to switch careers. We have allowed ourselves to be played on a GRAND scale - primarily out of our own selfishness for the past decade or two. When's the last time you saw a heart surgeon take a position for $20,000 a year - especially after years of student loan debt? Our lack of knowledge when it comes to labor-relations history in our industry is KILLING us right now - as is our ignorance of basic economics. We are not unified, nor are we formidable.
The Karras School (of negotiating skills) tells us that, 'you don't get what we deserve; you get what you negotiate.'
Amy Fraher's book, 'The Next Crash' explains this far better than I ever could. I think most of us know what we SHOULD do - we've just lost hope that our fellow pilots will do the right thing.
Suffice it to say, this needs to change - and change quickly.
One thing I've had LOT of experience with is union contracts - on both sides (labor and management) . I've been following the posts here, and would like to offer my opinion - for what it's worth. I don't have all the answers - but I understand the process better than some.
This first thing I'd like to add is that - as Mesa pilots - we already work for United and American. The legacies CREATED the regionals. Without the legacies, the Regionals don't exist. Without the Regionals, the legacies would be just fine. We allow ourselves to be used as cheap labor for them. We are the kid in Bangladesh who makes Air Jordans for ten cents a day. It was a series of choices that led us here - but here we are. The same can be said for any Regional, but Mesa (and the contract) is the focal point in this discussion.
If any regional pilot thinks ALPA is on their side, I have bad news for you. While I know some of the personnel involved, the higher levels of ALPA do not have the best interests of its pilots in mind. Years (decades, actually) of rhetoric aside, the results speak volumes. Pilots who volunteer, and who do their best to walk-the-walk and make things better, have my utmost respect. What most of them don't realize is that their work is undermined by an archaic process that was designed to benefit a certain group. WE ARE NOT THAT GROUP.
Today, the Regionals move somewhere between 50-60% of the domestic market in the U.S. That means the legacies (and their lapdogs in the affected unions) have figured out a way to pay a HUGE percentage of the pilots who move their passengers only a fraction of the wages they pay their own mainline pilots. Mainline pilots, through a series of bad decisions have helped to create this artificial line between Regionals and Mainline. Both mainline and regional pilots are responsible for this. As long as the perception remains that we (regionals) are somehow inferior to mainline pilots - the gap in wages will stay intact. By too many of us being willing to spend our careers as regional pilots, we've inadvertently increased our marketshare - thus reducing the need for majors to hire those of us wanting to move on. There is still advancement opportunities - but if we played our cards right, there would be a LOT more.
DO NOT allow anyone to tell you that the legacies can't afford to pay us - or would otherwise suffer financial hardships if our pay was closer to that of mainline. In today's economic climate, that's simply not true.
So - to the contract. By not demanding retro pay for the years that Mesa pilots worked without a new contract, you are giving incentive for JO (and all other airline CEO's, for that matter) to never negotiate a contract on time again. Why should they? We are allowing him to get away with years of paying us pathetic wages - with no penalty for dragging his feet for several more years AFTER the life of the contract expires. By not demanding retro pay, we've screwed ourselves going forward. I'm guessing he's getting a percentage of whatever he saves our mainline carriers in overall labor costs. That's money in his pocket - and not yours.
Having worked for other regionals, my opinion is that these are (by far) the worst working conditions I've seen. The benefits are FAR inferior to other regionals (wholly-owned, non wholly-owned, non-union, etc). It's not even close. Quality-of-life in one's schedule is noticeably better at other regionals whom I've worked for. Same with hotels. Reserve is a living hell here at Mesa - in every way - compared to other carriers. Again, my opinion here - take it for whatever it's worth.
Without getting too deep into details (sorry for the long-winded post), this contract is - in my opinion - WAY below what we're worth. I will definitely be a 'no' vote. In fact, this offer has seriously convinced me that it's time to switch careers. We have allowed ourselves to be played on a GRAND scale - primarily out of our own selfishness for the past decade or two. When's the last time you saw a heart surgeon take a position for $20,000 a year - especially after years of student loan debt? Our lack of knowledge when it comes to labor-relations history in our industry is KILLING us right now - as is our ignorance of basic economics. We are not unified, nor are we formidable.
The Karras School (of negotiating skills) tells us that, 'you don't get what we deserve; you get what you negotiate.'
Amy Fraher's book, 'The Next Crash' explains this far better than I ever could. I think most of us know what we SHOULD do - we've just lost hope that our fellow pilots will do the right thing.
Suffice it to say, this needs to change - and change quickly.
06-15-2017, 09:25 PM
#4413
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,530
I've worked in this business since the 80's - both at a major (not a pilot), and in the commuter airlines, which eventually became known as Regional Airlines. Let's just say I've burned a few bridges. Some of them (in retrospect) were my own screw-ups, others because I stood on principle - to the point where it cost me a job. I'm now an FO at Mesa - mostly as a result of past decisions.
One thing I've had LOT of experience with is union contracts - on both sides (labor and management) . I've been following the posts here, and would like to offer my opinion - for what it's worth. I don't have all the answers - but I understand the process better than some.
This first thing I'd like to add is that - as Mesa pilots - we already work for United and American. The legacies CREATED the regionals. Without the legacies, the Regionals don't exist. Without the Regionals, the legacies would be just fine. We allow ourselves to be used as cheap labor for them. We are the kid in Bangladesh who makes Air Jordans for ten cents a day. It was a series of choices that led us here - but here we are. The same can be said for any Regional, but Mesa (and the contract) is the focal point in this discussion.
If any regional pilot thinks ALPA is on their side, I have bad news for you. While I know some of the personnel involved, the higher levels of ALPA do not have the best interests of its pilots in mind. Years (decades, actually) of rhetoric aside, the results speak volumes. Pilots who volunteer, and who do their best to walk-the-walk and make things better, have my utmost respect. What most of them don't realize is that their work is undermined by an archaic process that was designed to benefit a certain group. WE ARE NOT THAT GROUP.
Today, the Regionals move somewhere between 50-60% of the domestic market in the U.S. That means the legacies (and their lapdogs in the affected unions) have figured out a way to pay a HUGE percentage of the pilots who move their passengers only a fraction of the wages they pay their own mainline pilots. Mainline pilots, through a series of bad decisions have helped to create this artificial line between Regionals and Mainline. Both mainline and regional pilots are responsible for this. As long as the perception remains that we (regionals) are somehow inferior to mainline pilots - the gap in wages will stay intact. By too many of us being willing to spend our careers as regional pilots, we've inadvertently increased our marketshare - thus reducing the need for majors to hire those of us wanting to move on. There is still advancement opportunities - but if we played our cards right, there would be a LOT more.
DO NOT allow anyone to tell you that the legacies can't afford to pay us - or would otherwise suffer financial hardships if our pay was closer to that of mainline. In today's economic climate, that's simply not true.
So - to the contract. By not demanding retro pay for the years that Mesa pilots worked without a new contract, you are giving incentive for JO (and all other airline CEO's, for that matter) to never negotiate a contract on time again. Why should they? We are allowing him to get away with years of paying us pathetic wages - with no penalty for dragging his feet for several more years AFTER the life of the contract expires. By not demanding retro pay, we've screwed ourselves going forward. I'm guessing he's getting a percentage of whatever he saves our mainline carriers in overall labor costs. That's money in his pocket - and not yours.
Having worked for other regionals, my opinion is that these are (by far) the worst working conditions I've seen. The benefits are FAR inferior to other regionals (wholly-owned, non wholly-owned, non-union, etc). It's not even close. Quality-of-life in one's schedule is noticeably better at other regionals whom I've worked for. Same with hotels. Reserve is a living hell here at Mesa - in every way - compared to other carriers. Again, my opinion here - take it for whatever it's worth.
Without getting too deep into details (sorry for the long-winded post), this contract is - in my opinion - WAY below what we're worth. I will definitely be a 'no' vote. In fact, this offer has seriously convinced me that it's time to switch careers. We have allowed ourselves to be played on a GRAND scale - primarily out of our own selfishness for the past decade or two. When's the last time you saw a heart surgeon take a position for $20,000 a year - especially after years of student loan debt? Our lack of knowledge when it comes to labor-relations history in our industry is KILLING us right now - as is our ignorance of basic economics. We are not unified, nor are we formidable.
The Karras School (of negotiating skills) tells us that, 'you don't get what we deserve; you get what you negotiate.'
Amy Fraher's book, 'The Next Crash' explains this far better than I ever could. I think most of us know what we SHOULD do - we've just lost hope that our fellow pilots will do the right thing.
Suffice it to say, this needs to change - and change quickly.
One thing I've had LOT of experience with is union contracts - on both sides (labor and management) . I've been following the posts here, and would like to offer my opinion - for what it's worth. I don't have all the answers - but I understand the process better than some.
This first thing I'd like to add is that - as Mesa pilots - we already work for United and American. The legacies CREATED the regionals. Without the legacies, the Regionals don't exist. Without the Regionals, the legacies would be just fine. We allow ourselves to be used as cheap labor for them. We are the kid in Bangladesh who makes Air Jordans for ten cents a day. It was a series of choices that led us here - but here we are. The same can be said for any Regional, but Mesa (and the contract) is the focal point in this discussion.
If any regional pilot thinks ALPA is on their side, I have bad news for you. While I know some of the personnel involved, the higher levels of ALPA do not have the best interests of its pilots in mind. Years (decades, actually) of rhetoric aside, the results speak volumes. Pilots who volunteer, and who do their best to walk-the-walk and make things better, have my utmost respect. What most of them don't realize is that their work is undermined by an archaic process that was designed to benefit a certain group. WE ARE NOT THAT GROUP.
Today, the Regionals move somewhere between 50-60% of the domestic market in the U.S. That means the legacies (and their lapdogs in the affected unions) have figured out a way to pay a HUGE percentage of the pilots who move their passengers only a fraction of the wages they pay their own mainline pilots. Mainline pilots, through a series of bad decisions have helped to create this artificial line between Regionals and Mainline. Both mainline and regional pilots are responsible for this. As long as the perception remains that we (regionals) are somehow inferior to mainline pilots - the gap in wages will stay intact. By too many of us being willing to spend our careers as regional pilots, we've inadvertently increased our marketshare - thus reducing the need for majors to hire those of us wanting to move on. There is still advancement opportunities - but if we played our cards right, there would be a LOT more.
DO NOT allow anyone to tell you that the legacies can't afford to pay us - or would otherwise suffer financial hardships if our pay was closer to that of mainline. In today's economic climate, that's simply not true.
So - to the contract. By not demanding retro pay for the years that Mesa pilots worked without a new contract, you are giving incentive for JO (and all other airline CEO's, for that matter) to never negotiate a contract on time again. Why should they? We are allowing him to get away with years of paying us pathetic wages - with no penalty for dragging his feet for several more years AFTER the life of the contract expires. By not demanding retro pay, we've screwed ourselves going forward. I'm guessing he's getting a percentage of whatever he saves our mainline carriers in overall labor costs. That's money in his pocket - and not yours.
Having worked for other regionals, my opinion is that these are (by far) the worst working conditions I've seen. The benefits are FAR inferior to other regionals (wholly-owned, non wholly-owned, non-union, etc). It's not even close. Quality-of-life in one's schedule is noticeably better at other regionals whom I've worked for. Same with hotels. Reserve is a living hell here at Mesa - in every way - compared to other carriers. Again, my opinion here - take it for whatever it's worth.
Without getting too deep into details (sorry for the long-winded post), this contract is - in my opinion - WAY below what we're worth. I will definitely be a 'no' vote. In fact, this offer has seriously convinced me that it's time to switch careers. We have allowed ourselves to be played on a GRAND scale - primarily out of our own selfishness for the past decade or two. When's the last time you saw a heart surgeon take a position for $20,000 a year - especially after years of student loan debt? Our lack of knowledge when it comes to labor-relations history in our industry is KILLING us right now - as is our ignorance of basic economics. We are not unified, nor are we formidable.
The Karras School (of negotiating skills) tells us that, 'you don't get what we deserve; you get what you negotiate.'
Amy Fraher's book, 'The Next Crash' explains this far better than I ever could. I think most of us know what we SHOULD do - we've just lost hope that our fellow pilots will do the right thing.
Suffice it to say, this needs to change - and change quickly.
The issue is also J.O. Mesa pilots have definitely had it worse than other groups. Most other management someonewhat gave in to their pilots long ago. JO is still stuck in the Freedom Air days. But as it's been said, his hands are tied now. He has a lot of pressure from United to keep those brand new jets flying and there's no pilots available. The last thing he needs is more time at the negotiating table. But he's not dumb, he's still going to lowball the first offer. They don't have anything to lose, they either succeed in getting a yes vote or they give you more if they have to. It's that simple.
06-15-2017, 10:41 PM
#4414
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 274
06-15-2017, 10:52 PM
#4416
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 274
So what? You don't have to work here to know it's a substandard contract. You even admitted that yourself while trying to justify your willingness to vote for it.
06-15-2017, 10:55 PM
#4417
Hold my beer, watch this.
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: Airbus Pilot
Posts: 246
Excuse me...I worked at Mesa and voted NO twice! I tried to make it a better place for you but people like you are the reason Mesa is Mesa. What have you done? Based on your Russians example you just told me you know it all and you are "that FO" that never listens to the captain trying to help you because you are screwing it all up. Yep. You are the new generation... Bottom line...I don't respect people like you who are so selfish. Vote how you want but I have no sympathy for you if it passes.
Last edited by wt93205; 06-15-2017 at 11:09 PM.
06-15-2017, 11:02 PM
#4418
Hold my beer, watch this.
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: Airbus Pilot
Posts: 246
"US" former Mesa pilots know this is by far the best time to get what you deserve and don't want to see you miss out on it. "We" still care. You can mock us and act like we are here with some evil motive like you are thinking but...WHY would we want to do that??? If you are a true Mesa pilot you know we are not fond of how management treated us and/or you, suffered under low pay rates, and know this is the time to fix as much as you can. I did what I could when I was at Mesa but I never had the opportunity like you do now with the way things are in the industry. Like I keep saying vote how you want but if this is the best you want then fine. Just don't go around complaining after you vote yes that you still find yourself eating ramen noodles because you have expensive health insurance or whatever reason you want to give. This is your chance to fix it.
One thing to remember...You have no flow. You better be working hard to get hired else where because others have flow AND an better contract while they wait. So how many have gotten hired at your dream airline from Mesa recently? What were there qualifications? What if you get stuck at Mesa longer then you think? These need to be thought about prior to voting this thing in. Can you live for 3, 5, or even 10 years under it? Look at all the terrorist attacks. What if is starts in the US? The travel ban keeps getting shot down so who knows who are coming in these days without proper vetting. Have you been through the aviation cycle yet? Just think about all of that. Please.
Last edited by wt93205; 06-15-2017 at 11:28 PM.
06-15-2017, 11:23 PM
#4419
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 78
Really? Russians to rig it in my favor? What do I have to gain? Why do you think I am on here trying to inform based on my 14 years of experience at Mesa? Maybe because you might not know about Freedom and what it did to Mesa, or the 2008 contract that passed by a vote or two because of the tough times and that we would get more in 2010 that is still on going. I have no skin in the game except to help see you through to a better contract that you finally deserve. Yes it is unfinished business for me to see a contract that Mesa pilots can be proud of. This is still not it. But vote how you want if you want the trend to continue at Mesa as a laughing bottom feeder to other pilots.
"US" former Mesa pilots know this is by far the best time to get what you deserve and don't want to see you miss out on it. "We" still care. You can mock us and act like we are here with some evil motive like you are thinking but...WHY would we want to do that??? If you are a true Mesa pilot you know we are not fond of how management treated us and/or you, and know this is the time to fix as much as you can. I did what I could when I was at Mesa but I never had the opportunity like you do now with the way things are in the industry. Like I keep saying vote how you want but if this is the best you want then fine. Just don't go around complaining after you vote yes that you still find yourself eating ramen noodles because you have expensive health insurance or whatever reason you want to give. This is your chance to fix it.
"US" former Mesa pilots know this is by far the best time to get what you deserve and don't want to see you miss out on it. "We" still care. You can mock us and act like we are here with some evil motive like you are thinking but...WHY would we want to do that??? If you are a true Mesa pilot you know we are not fond of how management treated us and/or you, and know this is the time to fix as much as you can. I did what I could when I was at Mesa but I never had the opportunity like you do now with the way things are in the industry. Like I keep saying vote how you want but if this is the best you want then fine. Just don't go around complaining after you vote yes that you still find yourself eating ramen noodles because you have expensive health insurance or whatever reason you want to give. This is your chance to fix it.
06-15-2017, 11:34 PM
#4420
Hold my beer, watch this.
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: Airbus Pilot
Posts: 246
That is a question you should ask another regional pilot or ask ALPA MEC what the others have. They should know that info. It shouldn't be your whole paycheck. When I left Mesa wanted 480/month for the health plan I was on when I was hired. I left it back in 2008 and was paying 175/month for a better plan on the market in early 2016. This alone shows what the FA's do to the costs and how Mesa is not contributing anything to it. Of course now I pay 125/month for even better but you won't get that. So somewhere in line with your peers but this contract does not address it.
However based on your comment to "get right on it" you are mocking me and probably just don't care what I have to say. Your choice.
Last edited by wt93205; 06-15-2017 at 11:46 PM.
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