Mesa 3.0
07-10-2016, 04:52 PM
#151
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 688
I have the list and have had the explanation, but someone needs to clarify the difference between Freedom A listers and B listers for those who aren't familiar. And I'm hoping Sennant can clarify why some of those A listers (or JG or whoever that guy in question is) are mislabeled as bad but aren't true A listers. My understanding is those who were hired into Freedom who either didn't know any better or didn't have a choice fell on the B list, hence the difference between Union busters and guys who didn't knowingly screw Union pilots under the same umbrella. The way a bunch of the senior Mesa guys I used to fly with explained it, there are no good freedom A listers. All are guilty. The B listers are ok and no stink was raised because they were hired or forced into it. Why even have an A list if some are okay and some are not? Why didn't they make a separate "bad" list if some of the A listers are okay?
Freedom A was the crj 700/900 America West screw around Mesa as described above. Freedom B is when the erj 145 had to be moved from the Mesa certificate to the freedom certificate to operate with delta due to deltas scope clause of no code sharing with aircraft with X+ seats. But Freedom B was all one seniority list and allowed for movement back and forth.
07-10-2016, 04:54 PM
#152
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 688
As always, appreciate your input. And it is an important distinction.
Freedom A Listers - the guys described in the earlier post who transferred from Mesa to Freedom and formed the initial cadre that allowed it to proliferate. They did it for personal gain and screwed everyone else.
B Listers - once the initial cadre was formed, Pandora's Box was opened and there wasn't much anyone could do to stop it. Guys who had been applying to Mesa were told it was no longer hiring, but a new subsidiary called Freedom was. People going to the Mesa Airline Pilot Development Program (MAPD aka MPD), a flight school owned by MAG, no longer had guaranteed interviews with Mesa but suddenly did with Freedom. Guys like this became known as B Listers. It wasn't really their fault, they didn't create the monster, they didn't try to stab anyone in the back, and it's long been the consensus that they're pretty much blameless.
Freedom A Listers - the guys described in the earlier post who transferred from Mesa to Freedom and formed the initial cadre that allowed it to proliferate. They did it for personal gain and screwed everyone else.
B Listers - once the initial cadre was formed, Pandora's Box was opened and there wasn't much anyone could do to stop it. Guys who had been applying to Mesa were told it was no longer hiring, but a new subsidiary called Freedom was. People going to the Mesa Airline Pilot Development Program (MAPD aka MPD), a flight school owned by MAG, no longer had guaranteed interviews with Mesa but suddenly did with Freedom. Guys like this became known as B Listers. It wasn't really their fault, they didn't create the monster, they didn't try to stab anyone in the back, and it's long been the consensus that they're pretty much blameless.
07-10-2016, 05:06 PM
#153
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 688
The gray area comes with those hired into Freedom A. To a union anyone working at an alter ego union busting airline is "scum". The reality is more gray. Yes they could have chosen to turn down the job and make a point. But really? A 20 something who just sunk thousands into MAPD who can't qualify for a job anywhere else due to low time is not going to turn down a job where your told this is your only option.
So, the A list exists as every pilot who was at Freedom when scope was reclaimed. The list exists because they were at an alter ego. Obviously there's various degrees of hosing by those pilots against the Mesa pilots. JG fits into the no choice take the job or no job category. But the hard core deep seated Union pilot will always say he should have turned it down on principle.
Welcome to unions.
07-10-2016, 07:13 PM
#154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
The Freedom A list is anyone who worked the alter ego separate crj airline in Phx. Freedom B came after the contract that reclaimed scope and was a forced aircraft move to a different certificate. Think of it like Republic and Shuttle America.
The gray area comes with those hired into Freedom A. To a union anyone working at an alter ego union busting airline is "scum". The reality is more gray. Yes they could have chosen to turn down the job and make a point. But really? A 20 something who just sunk thousands into MAPD who can't qualify for a job anywhere else due to low time is not going to turn down a job where your told this is your only option.
So, the A list exists as every pilot who was at Freedom when scope was reclaimed. The list exists because they were at an alter ego. Obviously there's various degrees of hosing by those pilots against the Mesa pilots. JG fits into the no choice take the job or no job category. But the hard core deep seated Union pilot will always say he should have turned it down on principle.
Welcome to unions.
The gray area comes with those hired into Freedom A. To a union anyone working at an alter ego union busting airline is "scum". The reality is more gray. Yes they could have chosen to turn down the job and make a point. But really? A 20 something who just sunk thousands into MAPD who can't qualify for a job anywhere else due to low time is not going to turn down a job where your told this is your only option.
So, the A list exists as every pilot who was at Freedom when scope was reclaimed. The list exists because they were at an alter ego. Obviously there's various degrees of hosing by those pilots against the Mesa pilots. JG fits into the no choice take the job or no job category. But the hard core deep seated Union pilot will always say he should have turned it down on principle.
Welcome to unions.
Did other low time guys waited and did not jump on Freedom A like JG?
I was told ALPA went to Farmington and told these low time fresh license pilots not to join Freedom. some listened and waited and still got hired at Mesa after you signed contract 03 and capture Freedom the alter ego
I verified that with senior Mesa Captains and said yes ALPA was there and told them don't go since Mesa is into section 6
So it's safe to say Freedom A is Freedom A
Thanks for the info
BTW I got a Freedom A list with 156 names on it so thanks again for the info....
07-10-2016, 07:16 PM
#155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
I know John and he would be happy to discuss this with you offline if you have any questions. Feel free to email him... [email protected]
Great guy, I don't think he was with the Freedom A you are thinking as he wasn't even on property when that happened.
Great guy, I don't think he was with the Freedom A you are thinking as he wasn't even on property when that happened.
His name is on the Freedom A list and verified
by senior Mesa Captains that have been there during the freedom start up
But thanks anyway
07-10-2016, 08:20 PM
#156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
This is what he has told me "Hey, Gents there is a lot of misinformation out there on what really went down at Freedom.**Not that I need to defend or explain myself but, I should not be on that list or any list for that matter.**I was hired off the street.**I did not cross a picket line, I did not try to circumvent seniority and the fact of the matter the only people I knew at Mesa were over there.**I called the local Mesa ALPA leadership and the current MEC Chair stated not to worry about it its not gonna happen etc.**When I interviewed it was along side US Airways furloughs who had there at their associations and supposedly nationals blessing.**I would be happy to discuss what went down since I was there with anyone who feel like its an issue.**I would hate for some misunderstanding or erroneous list cost me the job of a lifetime."
Did ALPA leadership to include its president at the time DW went to Farmington and told the future Mesa pilots that Freedom was an alter ego that was formed to undercut Mesa pilots during their section 6 negotiations ? If the answer is yes
Then I think you made a bad choice
If fedex gets A380s and ALPA is trying to negotiate rates for the aircraft and Fedex starts an alter ego and hire from the street it would have been the same ..... Not good
07-11-2016, 05:09 AM
#157
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,198
Did ALPA leadership to include its president at the time DW went to Farmington and told the future Mesa pilots that Freedom was an alter ego that was formed to undercut Mesa pilots during their section 6 negotiations ? If the answer is yes
Then I think you made a bad choice
If fedex gets A380s and ALPA is trying to negotiate rates for the aircraft and Fedex starts an alter ego and hire from the street it would have been the same ..... Not good
Then I think you made a bad choice
If fedex gets A380s and ALPA is trying to negotiate rates for the aircraft and Fedex starts an alter ego and hire from the street it would have been the same ..... Not good
07-11-2016, 06:21 AM
#158
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: CFI
Posts: 93
07-11-2016, 10:10 AM
#159
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: E-175, Captain
Posts: 5
Good question. I don't know his situation specifically, others would be more qualified to answer. But there seems to be a reasonable doubt raised. I checked out his hire date, and it was right around when Freedom began operating. While ambiguous, it's possible he was one of the very first street hires, but because of that high seniority he erroneously got mixed in with the real A Listers a few months later when somebody created "the list." Or maybe he's guilty. I don't know. At least he's making an effort to talk with people who've taken issue; I would hate for someone to lose out on a great job because of a mistake.
I left San Juan before Alpa did their little road show to the school. I wasn't aware that they had even gone out there and was to busy literally digging ditches and living in my in-laws basement with a newborn.
Again, I was a new-hire out of San Juan (MAPD). I have an Air Midwest employee number as I was a ramper prior to being given a class date.
Anyone that has an employee # starting with 4000's should not be on the list as they were new/street hires. Don't get me started on who produced the list and how something that no one will claim is treated as fact.
My class was about half US Airways furloughs and subsequent classes were even higher than that. Knowing what I know 15 YEARS LATER I would likely not go...Knowing what I knew then I would do the same thing. I believe this was a significant tactical miscalculation by the local association. I have always maintained that if they had just sent over there top 50 CA's/FO's there would have been no issue.
Now, there is significantly less than 300 pilots who were actually here when this went down and different folks have different opinions based on how it affected them. I wont shy away from what happened and am happy to have an open conversation with anyone to a point. I do find it amusing how some folks like to state its the cause of our crap contracts but if you saw the latest TA you would know that is just smoke and mirrors. There are some folks who believe we would have lost the flying altogether, to another carrier and never would have had 700/900s. Not saying I agree just saying perspective is everything.
07-11-2016, 10:18 AM
#160
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: E-175, Captain
Posts: 5
The Freedom A list is anyone who worked the alter ego separate crj airline in Phx. Freedom B came after the contract that reclaimed scope and was a forced aircraft move to a different certificate. Think of it like Republic and Shuttle America.
The gray area comes with those hired into Freedom A. To a union anyone working at an alter ego union busting airline is "scum". The reality is more gray. Yes they could have chosen to turn down the job and make a point. But really? A 20 something who just sunk thousands into MAPD who can't qualify for a job anywhere else due to low time is not going to turn down a job where your told this is your only option.
So, the A list exists as every pilot who was at Freedom when scope was reclaimed. The list exists because they were at an alter ego. Obviously there's various degrees of hosing by those pilots against the Mesa pilots. JG fits into the no choice take the job or no job category. But the hard core deep seated Union pilot will always say he should have turned it down on principle.
Welcome to unions.
The gray area comes with those hired into Freedom A. To a union anyone working at an alter ego union busting airline is "scum". The reality is more gray. Yes they could have chosen to turn down the job and make a point. But really? A 20 something who just sunk thousands into MAPD who can't qualify for a job anywhere else due to low time is not going to turn down a job where your told this is your only option.
So, the A list exists as every pilot who was at Freedom when scope was reclaimed. The list exists because they were at an alter ego. Obviously there's various degrees of hosing by those pilots against the Mesa pilots. JG fits into the no choice take the job or no job category. But the hard core deep seated Union pilot will always say he should have turned it down on principle.
Welcome to unions.
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