Originally Posted by iFlyRC

Yep, you got me... Theres a couple of people on here who know who I am, and they are probaly laughing pretty hard right now. I was never part of the instant gratification crowd that so many complainers on here are obviously from... You go from zero jet time to the right seat of a 82,000lb jet and get ****y that you don't have 4 bars after two years... I got very lucky but I never expected it, and I wouldn't be *****ing about it if I didn't get it. There are so many pilots at Mesa who have had it much worse than all you new guys complaining. Even if it takes four years for you to upgrade, you would still be considered one of the lucky ones. Try 8 years, then getting down graded for a few years to finally be a CA again? My Envoy buddy was only on reserve for 5 years as a commuter. What a bunch of self entitled, instant gratification millenial whiners!

Am I a management type for believing that there is no one out to get us at the company? Am I a management type for believing this company will do what it says? I honestly believe they will need street captains if no one applies for a CRJ CA spot. My friend at Envoy would come here for that.

And if people refuse to upgrade to the CRJ, they must not need the near 100% pay increase... That tells more than anything.

Originally Posted by Shiner

I seriously doubt a senior FO at Envoy would leave for Mesa. They would already make 50k+ with the bonus and profit sharing, have a decent line and health insurance. They wouldn't need TPIC if they bank on flowing in a few years. Envoy ain't the best, but for most people, it's better than street CA at Mesa.

Originally Posted by Skyvector

^Keep this in mind. Without a flow, you are counting on being picked up off the street by Delta or United years down the road. Many would say that's a bigger gamble than a flow. At least with the flow your job is already guaranteed and it's just a matter of "when" not "if". Without a flow, it's both "if" and "when".

That's all I wanted to say about that. It's just perplexing how some people view a flow as not a sure thing but think that being picked up off the street by a major IS a sure thing. You can be clean as a whistle and check off all the time requirements and still never hear a peep from anyone other than Allegiant. And that's even after attending job fair after job fair.

Originally Posted by giggity37

If you are a 2014 hire and haven't upgraded yet. It means your not smart enough to submit a Capt qualification worksheet or you only want the shiny Ejet. It's not some conspirecy theory that the company might need to go to street Capts. They had almost no one bid for the crj on this last bid.

Originally Posted by iFlyRC

Today, right now, in this current climate, I have to agree with you on the flow. It is very nice to have. Other day talking to a United pilot, he said they need to hire 7000 pilots over the next 10 years. Your flow means something today, but five years from now? It probably won't matter much. 7000 pilots needed just for United, thats everyone from Envoy, RAH, and Mesa. 10 years from now, no one today will be able to recognize this industry unless another 9/11 happens or a great depression. The age 67 thing won't do much. So many variables at play, nothing set in stone today will make a difference for what is coming.

Originally Posted by PiperPower

This obsession with the Envoy flow program is insane. I'll admit that a flow up to American is great to have in the back pocket, but to rely solely on a flow date that's 4, 5, 6 years from now? What a crazy thing to do. History repeats itself. Look how much this industry has changed in the last 5 years. How different will it be in the next 5?

So with all due respect to the "flowers".... Unless your flow date is next year, I'm not jealous of your 2021 flow date. Personally, I think it'd be wise to go somewhere, get the turbine PIC, get qualified for a major/legacy job and move on! Even if I was an Envoy FO I wouldn't be patiently waiting a half decade for my shot at a major. I'd be applying everywhere, and if I can't land a job, well at least I MIGHT flow in 5 years...

But hell, some of these people from Envoy act like they're already employed by mainline American just because they have a flow-thru program.



Now, if you've got some skeletons in your closet; DUI, checkride failures, killed a guy with a trident, then by all means sit there for 5 years and pray to God your flow pans out.

But if someone wants to upgrade fast, get their time and move on to another legacy or major faster, can you blame them?

Originally Posted by Shiner

Honestly, I hesitated adding the flow to my argument, and should have left it out since any mention of it brings out a strong reaction.

Even without a flow, a senior Envoy FO, and a bottom reserve Mesa Captain are about equal in my eyes. The only difference is the CA logs TPIC, which doesn't matter if we'll all be at mainline in few years anyway.

I only responded in this thread to rebut iflyrc saying they'll be lateral movers for street CA jobs. I seriously doubt that's the case, but you never know. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Originally Posted by iFlyRC

I know of at least two Envoy guys who came to Mesa in the past 1.5 years who are already CA's here. I suppose they didn't want to wait around to become a "senior FO" at Envoy.

Originally Posted by buddies8

they were fired from envoy.