iFlyRC

Yes I went to ATP, and yes, It was mostly self study. Doesn't change the fact that they are extremely heavy on IFR, CRM, Flows, and doing things the same way an airline does things. After ATP, I instructed at 141 schools, so yes I know how to do NDB holding, approaches, and other obsolete crap. People who hate ATP usually are the ones that flunk out. You know what the best part was?! The cost! Sorry, but if you wanted to wind up with over 140 hours of multi, and all of your ratings for less than 50k, it was hard to beat. Back then, multi mattered more than it does now. Don't know if it is as good of a deal today, and going to a mom and pop 61 school is a nice way to go if you want to take a slower pace.

BobJenkins

No flashlight? Mine has a flashlight, IR light, and green laser. Works great for distracting other planes so we can get to the runway ahead of them.

word302

I have just never understood how cramming years of experience into a few months, in this kind of vocation, has ever been a sound idea. The funny thing about your comment is the cost was the first thing that had me looking elsewhere.

I don't hate ATP. I just find it hard to believe that their approach/timeline nurtures a quality instructive environment.

BobJenkins

Would it be better if the FAA required 10 years of flying experience in addition to an ATP? Be careful what you wish for.

Experience is great, I don't disagree with you on that. However, an ATP rating is simply a license to learn more. It's a stepping stone to a "higher" education, as it were.

flapshalfspeed

So, by your logic, the Air Force and Navy approach to pilot training is totally wrong? They've been doing it wrong all these years?

While ATP is nowhere close to the quality of instruction/selection conducted by the military, it is conducted with a similar philosophy: condense the timeframe and focus on procedural discipline and standardization, and you end up with better, safer pilots. Slowing the pace of training might give someone a tiny, tiny chance of seeing some more stuff like a real engine failure, but it's more likely to just impede the reinforcement of procedural discipline, good habits, and standardization--those are the things that get you through your first 121 training or first in-flight emergency in a transport jet...not years and years of experience growing your chest hair "building experience" in a 172/Seminole farting around rural wherever.

I'll gladly take a motivated new hire from a factory school in my right seat next time I have an emergency situation/engine failure, over a know-it-all gold-seal CFII with decades of experience navigating his local traffic pattern/practice area/VOR-A approach to the airport by his momma's house.

word302

Lol. That right there is hilarious. Comparing the way the military does things with ATPs program is kind of a stretch don't you think?

You present the 2 extremes to the training approach. I would argue that somewhere in between is where most good pilots come from.

BobJenkins

Far from hilarious, as he pointed out, their programs of instruction are very similar. As long as you have a good instructor, and a student willing to learn, you are going to end up with a good pilot sooner rather than later. "Getting the experience" happens when you are out on your own, testing your own personal limits. That almost never happens when with an instructor, either from a reluctance to try things, or from a sense of security thinking that person in the other seat will save your bacon.

Stratapilot

Far be it from me to try to change the relevant topic of ATP vs NOT ATP or anything, but I keep hearing that legacies and LCC's shy away from Mesa folks. I personally don't hear about too many Captains leaving for greener pastures. Have y'all heard anything different?

Xdashdriver

I personally know 4 CAs and 3 FOs that have moved on to LCCs and legacies in the last 3 months and I know there are more.

BE24pilot

I think you have a lot of captains at Mesa who are there for life. A lot of the people who were going to leave did so back when the company shrunk. I have found that there are a lot of Captains without 4 year degrees as well. I think this sqews the attrition numbers a bit. Add that with a lot of airlines that have contractual obligations to flow or interview people from a specific regional and you don't have a lot of street movement.