Mesa
01-24-2014, 03:55 PM
#1271
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Position: 175 Left
Posts: 1,539
Here is an example:
AIRPORT RESERVE: 15:00-16:10
Flight xxx ORD-MEM: 16:55-18:39
Flight xxx MEM-ORD: 19:18-20:45
"GROUND TIME" : 20:45-21:15
AIRPORT RESERVE: : 21:15-00:00
So CBreezy is saying that this crewmember is in a "reserve status" designated as "airport/standby reserve" from 15:00-00:00.
AIRPORT RESERVE: 15:00-16:10
Flight xxx ORD-MEM: 16:55-18:39
Flight xxx MEM-ORD: 19:18-20:45
"GROUND TIME" : 20:45-21:15
AIRPORT RESERVE: : 21:15-00:00
So CBreezy is saying that this crewmember is in a "reserve status" designated as "airport/standby reserve" from 15:00-00:00.
01-24-2014, 05:00 PM
#1272
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: South Paw
Posts: 630
The E-175 program sounds a lot like the Desert Sun issue we had a while back. Risley handpicked the guys to go fly those Fokkers and operated it as a different company (so they were essentially off the seniority list). Then when it failed, he brought them all back without a loss of seniority. Didn't they do that again with Freedom Air? Was there any action taken by ALPA for the seniority issues?
01-24-2014, 06:55 PM
#1274
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Position: 175 Left
Posts: 1,539
The schedules are atrocious. Min days off, barely breaking 78hrs.
Yet a pilot with vacation (7days of vacation)plus 11 days off min. Totaling 18 days off still gets a 78 hr line of flying.
So basically some pilots could have had an additional 7 days off in the month and still come out ahead.
MAG has taken a complete lackadaisical approach to the implementation of 117 and furthermore pilots are growing increasingly frustrated with the secrecy of the E175 program. The initial cadre has been selected for the project. Yet no one knows who has actually gone or how they were selected. Doesn't really matter but the only details company wide being received were from the former VP of Flight ops emails that left much to be desired? Currently CRJ upgrades are merely a trickle.
Middle of the road captains are trying desperately to get out ... But are getting reject letters. Mainline wants any name other than Bob,Steve or Tim etc.
I'm looking to jump based purely off MAG Mgmts. eminating disrespect for me as a professional. To work in an environment that is so self-deprecating is quite exhausting. *
*here comes a statement from prior121
Yet a pilot with vacation (7days of vacation)plus 11 days off min. Totaling 18 days off still gets a 78 hr line of flying.
So basically some pilots could have had an additional 7 days off in the month and still come out ahead.
MAG has taken a complete lackadaisical approach to the implementation of 117 and furthermore pilots are growing increasingly frustrated with the secrecy of the E175 program. The initial cadre has been selected for the project. Yet no one knows who has actually gone or how they were selected. Doesn't really matter but the only details company wide being received were from the former VP of Flight ops emails that left much to be desired? Currently CRJ upgrades are merely a trickle.
Middle of the road captains are trying desperately to get out ... But are getting reject letters. Mainline wants any name other than Bob,Steve or Tim etc.
I'm looking to jump based purely off MAG Mgmts. eminating disrespect for me as a professional. To work in an environment that is so self-deprecating is quite exhausting. *
*here comes a statement from prior121
Just like skillet said, "The **** stinks everywhere." (all regionals) However, I still say this place is better than RAH.
As far as new 117 schedules go, I think everyone (RAH, 9E, OO, etc) is complaining. Is the company just screwing people over with implementing the new rules into the schedules? Or is this the best they can do with the new rules? I really don't know. Also, doesn't the union make the schedules with the company? Atleast that is how I thought they did it here.
The company has been pretty what I would consider, "unorthodox" with EJET program information. I flew with a guy the other day who just upgraded this last summer and will be going to the EJET as a Checkairman. He pestered them and pestered them, never really getting confirmation that he was a part of it other than the STL training notification from the training dept and his February vacation cancelled.
In regards to the whole putting guys on ready (airport, hot, whatever your airline calls it) reserve when they finish flying, I know after talking to the company, their response is "we are waiting for interpretation from the FAA." From an operational standpoint, as soon as they use a reserve, they can no longer return them to "normal, regular, home" (whatever you want to call it) reserve that day, so to keep them useful they are trying to pull this putting them on ready thing. They say it keeps you in the same FDP. I guess when the FAA says, "No that's not legal", they're guessing they'll get some sort of leeway with violations since 117 is new and vague to everyone.
ALPA's stance is they are also waiting for interpretation from the FAA and to fill out a grievance and an ASAP.
01-24-2014, 07:17 PM
#1276
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Ha, no. I'm not going to stick up for anyone. Lots of you guys have been here a long time and that crap wears on you.
Just like skillet said, "The **** stinks everywhere." (all regionals) However, I still say this place is better than RAH.
As far as new 117 schedules go, I think everyone (RAH, 9E, OO, etc) is complaining. Is the company just screwing people over with implementing the new rules into the schedules? Or is this the best they can do with the new rules? I really don't know. Also, doesn't the union make the schedules with the company? Atleast that is how I thought they did it here.
The company has been pretty what I would consider, "unorthodox" with EJET program information. I flew with a guy the other day who just upgraded this last summer and will be going to the EJET as a Checkairman. He pestered them and pestered them, never really getting confirmation that he was a part of it other than the STL training notification from the training dept and his February vacation cancelled.
In regards to the whole putting guys on ready (airport, hot, whatever your airline calls it) reserve when they finish flying, I know after talking to the company, their response is "we are waiting for interpretation from the FAA." From an operational standpoint, as soon as they use a reserve, they can no longer return them to "normal, regular, home" (whatever you want to call it) reserve that day, so to keep them useful they are trying to pull this putting them on ready thing. They say it keeps you in the same FDP. I guess when the FAA says, "No that's not legal", they're guessing they'll get some sort of leeway with violations since 117 is new and vague to everyone.
ALPA's stance is they are also waiting for interpretation from the FAA and to fill out a grievance and an ASAP.
Just like skillet said, "The **** stinks everywhere." (all regionals) However, I still say this place is better than RAH.
As far as new 117 schedules go, I think everyone (RAH, 9E, OO, etc) is complaining. Is the company just screwing people over with implementing the new rules into the schedules? Or is this the best they can do with the new rules? I really don't know. Also, doesn't the union make the schedules with the company? Atleast that is how I thought they did it here.
The company has been pretty what I would consider, "unorthodox" with EJET program information. I flew with a guy the other day who just upgraded this last summer and will be going to the EJET as a Checkairman. He pestered them and pestered them, never really getting confirmation that he was a part of it other than the STL training notification from the training dept and his February vacation cancelled.
In regards to the whole putting guys on ready (airport, hot, whatever your airline calls it) reserve when they finish flying, I know after talking to the company, their response is "we are waiting for interpretation from the FAA." From an operational standpoint, as soon as they use a reserve, they can no longer return them to "normal, regular, home" (whatever you want to call it) reserve that day, so to keep them useful they are trying to pull this putting them on ready thing. They say it keeps you in the same FDP. I guess when the FAA says, "No that's not legal", they're guessing they'll get some sort of leeway with violations since 117 is new and vague to everyone.
ALPA's stance is they are also waiting for interpretation from the FAA and to fill out a grievance and an ASAP.
Heard that Horizon has been scheduling under 117 before it was mandatory, and their schedules are actually better than before.
01-24-2014, 09:53 PM
#1278
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,459
In regards to the whole putting guys on ready (airport, hot, whatever your airline calls it) reserve when they finish flying, I know after talking to the company, their response is "we are waiting for interpretation from the FAA." From an operational standpoint, as soon as they use a reserve, they can no longer return them to "normal, regular, home" (whatever you want to call it) reserve that day, so to keep them useful they are trying to pull this putting them on ready thing. They say it keeps you in the same FDP. I guess when the FAA says, "No that's not legal", they're guessing they'll get some sort of leeway with violations since 117 is new and vague to everyone.
ALPA's stance is they are also waiting for interpretation from the FAA and to fill out a grievance and an ASAP.
I'm sure the FAA will rule in favor of adding rsv to the end of shifts, and if thats going to be the case , i would rather head home on 1.5 call out than do ready, yuk! Honey, I'm back fom my 85 TAFB 4 day trip, its 2 pm, but i gotta sit here until midnight. ...Really?
Question, what if you refuse? Any anticdotal evidence out there as to reprecussion?
And btw. Filling out ASAP for this is the most asinine thing I've ever heard of. That program is reserved for honest pilot error, to glean data from the mistakes so lessons can be learned, and to encourage us to come clean in the interest of safety. ASAP is not to protect us from willingly accepting arguably illegal assignments and therby complicitly violating us govt federal regulations. Wanna screw around and use ASAP for this stuff? It only diminishes the integrity of the program, and ultimately endangers its viability and longevity.
This is nearly synonymous with being asked to fly with an open write up, then u call ALPA for advise and they tell you to go do the flight but to be sure to fill out an ASAP when you land. Let me know how that works out for ya.
And before you dismiss my analogy ask yourself why they are even using the word ASAP if they werent concerned it could indeed be a violation.
And another thing. If releasing a pilot back to sit short call reserve is blatantly not allowed, doesnt that infer that the spirit of the law is meant to prevent further reserve assignment? But because they dont like that they want to wiggle out on a technicality within the letter of the law and assign ready instead, an obviously more fatiguing type of rsv. This is seriously fishy.
Any other airlines are doing this? Anyone know?
Last edited by sulkair; 01-24-2014 at 10:06 PM.
01-25-2014, 07:36 AM
#1279
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: Dispatcher / Meteorolgist
Posts: 49
Here is an example:
AIRPORT RESERVE: 15:00-16:10
Flight xxx ORD-MEM: 16:55-18:39
Flight xxx MEM-ORD: 19:18-20:45
"GROUND TIME" : 20:45-21:15
AIRPORT RESERVE: : 21:15-00:00
So CBreezy is saying that this crewmember is in a "reserve status" designated as "airport/standby reserve" from 15:00-00:00.
I am arguing that you ceased being in an "airport/standby reserve status" (or an FDP) when the plane blocked in in ORD at 20:45 with no intention of further aircraft movement, and that the second block of airport/standby reserve is a new, second FDP which the crewmember is beginning without 10 hours of rest "immediately prior to beginning the reserve period"
Who agrees with me?
AIRPORT RESERVE: 15:00-16:10
Flight xxx ORD-MEM: 16:55-18:39
Flight xxx MEM-ORD: 19:18-20:45
"GROUND TIME" : 20:45-21:15
AIRPORT RESERVE: : 21:15-00:00
So CBreezy is saying that this crewmember is in a "reserve status" designated as "airport/standby reserve" from 15:00-00:00.
I am arguing that you ceased being in an "airport/standby reserve status" (or an FDP) when the plane blocked in in ORD at 20:45 with no intention of further aircraft movement, and that the second block of airport/standby reserve is a new, second FDP which the crewmember is beginning without 10 hours of rest "immediately prior to beginning the reserve period"
Who agrees with me?
Once the Airport Standby (ASB) is assigned a FDP the flightcrew member (FCM) is no longer on Reserve. The FCM may be assigned additional flights as long as they have not completed the FDP. Once the FDP has ended, the FCM must be given a rest period before starting another FDP or Reserve Duty.
117.25(e)
(e) No certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment for any reserve or flight duty period unless the flightcrew member is given a rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours immediately before beginning the reserve or flight duty period measured from the time the flightcrew member is released from duty. The 10 hour rest period must provide the flightcrew member with a minimum of 8 uninterrupted hours of sleep opportunity.
When the FAA answered RAA question they were pretty clear in the 05-Mar-2013 letters of clarification.
Look for: Rest period before being assigned a RAP.
01-25-2014, 01:36 PM
#1280
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,606
I dont with CBreezy. Your FDP ends at 20:45.
Once the Airport Standby (ASB) is assigned a FDP the flightcrew member (FCM) is no longer on Reserve. The FCM may be assigned additional flights as long as they have not completed the FDP. Once the FDP has ended, the FCM must be given a rest period before starting another FDP or Reserve Duty.
117.25(e)
(e) No certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment for any reserve or flight duty period unless the flightcrew member is given a rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours immediately before beginning the reserve or flight duty period measured from the time the flightcrew member is released from duty. The 10 hour rest period must provide the flightcrew member with a minimum of 8 uninterrupted hours of sleep opportunity.
When the FAA answered RAA question they were pretty clear in the 05-Mar-2013 letters of clarification.
Look for: Rest period before being assigned a RAP.
Once the Airport Standby (ASB) is assigned a FDP the flightcrew member (FCM) is no longer on Reserve. The FCM may be assigned additional flights as long as they have not completed the FDP. Once the FDP has ended, the FCM must be given a rest period before starting another FDP or Reserve Duty.
117.25(e)
(e) No certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment for any reserve or flight duty period unless the flightcrew member is given a rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours immediately before beginning the reserve or flight duty period measured from the time the flightcrew member is released from duty. The 10 hour rest period must provide the flightcrew member with a minimum of 8 uninterrupted hours of sleep opportunity.
When the FAA answered RAA question they were pretty clear in the 05-Mar-2013 letters of clarification.
Look for: Rest period before being assigned a RAP.
I just remembered something from a clarification I received: Here's where it gets really vague. If you are scheduled for airport reserve and pick up a trip at the 10 hour mark, assuming you start at 0600, you will only have 2 hours of duty remaining and the entire 12 hour period counts toward your cumulative for 168. If you are not scheduled to fly, the x hours you spent on reserve does not count toward FDP cumulative limits.
In the example above, you're correct in that it wouldn't technically be FDP until midnight. However, if you are assigned at 2200, all of it would count as FDP and need to be considered. It's no different if you are scheduled to deadhead at the very end of your legal FDP.
The moral of the story is, it is a legal assignment and no 10 hour rest is required prior to being assigned it.
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