TheBills

Until it happens to you. example: Midwest. Basically your saying that all the midwest guys should be stapled to the bottom of republics list. Or maybe your just talking about Mesa? If thats the case I might slightly agree with you.

seafeye

Are they still flying under the midwest certificate?

Mesa undercut all other pilots, putting our pay/QOL back 20 years. Now they should be offered a job at another airline?

The fee for departure would give pilots seniority at another airline, they would keep their seat but would start off at year 1 pay.

Airlines would get experienced pilots for 1st year pay in the left seat. How is this not lowering the bar?
It screws all the F/O's that have waited patiently for upgrade at the same time making management look great for having a stellar bottom line. If you want to end whipsawing then have an industry wide pay rate/contract. Thus reducing the effect labor has on the bottom line.

Tar Heel

What about the original A-listers from GoJets? I mean weren't some of them originally TSA? And from what I have been told some have moved up from the regional level to other places - corporate, mainline, etc. I mean you keep throwing out "whipsaw", I cannot think of a more perfect example. What about Republic's bid for the American Connection flying? Doesn't it apply? I mean it's direct competition to a wholly owned in Eagle. It was originally awarded to TSA because they could offer a cheaper product right? How is that not just as bad based on your argument?

rickair7777

It would be nice on one level, but I doubt it would end whipsaw. The regionals could maybe be convinced by their pilot groups to honor seniority from other airlines, and to hire such people...but there is no way in hell you are going to get them to honor LONGEVITY from another airline! A CA from a failed airline might come in with 20+ years seniority and bid single digits in your domicile, but he is going to be doing it on first year pay!

He loses, you lose, company wins. Any questions?

Also the problem with implementing something like this is that different airlines have different prospects for the future. RAH is going to become a major, and eventually get grandfathered to legacy airline status! Their future's so bright they gotta wear shades...why would they make a deal like this with mesa, which is facing possible Ch.7?

ToiletDuck

What bid? The flying that CHQ was doing for TWA when AMR purchased them?

seafeye

Trans States had to get an additional operating certificate to use larger airplanes because of the agreement with AMR. Even though the airplanes would be operated under United Airlines.
What TSA managment should have done is use the pilots from TransStates for GOjets. Working under the same seniority list etc... They didn't and that hurt the pilots at Trans States. This has nothing to do with the FFD.
My last statement was that i personally believe that Mesa pilots should not have a position reserved for them at other airlines. They are going out of business and it wouldn't be reasonable to expect a job/position elsewhere. They can come over and apply and start at the bottom like everybody else. Mesa pilots took the gamble to work at the worlds worst airline and I am sorry that they will lose their job but Mesa has done far more harm to this industry than good.
When JO comes to them and asks for concessions it hurts all pilots. And to then expect to work at my company with a seniority number above others is just...unjust.

dashtrash300

Midwest was bought, Mesa is going under. Two different things. Just because someone went to Mesa for the quick upgrade doesn't mean they should go in front of someone who has been an FO at a quality airline for 4+ years. I think they should just have to interview at airlines like everyone else instead of getting mixed in because they worked for a crappy airline just for the quick upgrade.

iPilot

Unfortunately we have a seniority based system in the airlines and for better or for worse it's what we all signed up for. I do feel sorry for the old Mesa guys who will have to start at year 1 pay wherever they go. Its easy for us all to chastise these pilots for their decisions, and most of it is well deserved. However, at the end of the day they are just people like you and me with houses, wife/husband, kids, and obligations. Nobody wants to go through what they're about to and so we have to extend a bit of sympathy there.

So what to do? We can't reasonably expect to be able to jump to another airline and retain seniority. That's just not fair to the rest of the folks at the new airline. I think our focus going forward is to even out the pay scale at all airlines. The hazing process of ridiculously low 1st year pay followed by ridiculously low FO pay is just giving airlines an excuse to keep the work group fresh. Think of the advantage a major airline can have if they just hand contracts to new airlines every couple of years and make us all start back at the bottom over and over.

If we flatten the pay rates so instead of starting at $19k and end at $120k we can shoot for $30k to $90k? $40k to $70k? That would still give the senior guys a pretty nice paycheck but avoid having pilots starving down at the bottom of the list just wanting the quick upgrade. I doubt Mesa would have gotten all those eager pilots if they didn't promise them that they would be in and out to a major in 3-5 years if they would just take slave wages.

Blueskies21

Mesaba's union had an idea recently to use a 4% snapback raise that captains were getting in December to give the Fo's a 8% raise on the basis that the captain wages were more in line with industry average than fo rates.... put it out for a vote... got just over 50% of the pilot group to vote... 68% of the captains participating voted no and 91% of the FO's voted yes. You won't find any support on the high side to flatten out the wages, guys don't care that anyone is starving because they're not.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, pilots are screwed because there's too many guys out for themselves. If we weren't union and seniority based then being out for yourself is the American way, being union and seniority based, in theory you're looking out for your brothers and the profession. Nice theory.

iPilot

Yeah but CBAs are agreed upon by the entire pilot group. Everyone gets one vote so even if the senior guys don't like it, if the majority votes YES it should go through.