Mesa Air Group Chapter 11 Info
02-02-2010, 06:46 AM
#302
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 510
THX Wing,
good work, would bet against UAL and the 10 additional but on board with the rest. I was asking because I know a family whose son flys for mesa out of ORD. Hold on it's going to be dicey but OJ seems to know his way around the courts. I think DAL is going to either pay the 70 mill or keep going till 2013. Good luck Wing and thx again.
good work, would bet against UAL and the 10 additional but on board with the rest. I was asking because I know a family whose son flys for mesa out of ORD. Hold on it's going to be dicey but OJ seems to know his way around the courts. I think DAL is going to either pay the 70 mill or keep going till 2013. Good luck Wing and thx again.
02-02-2010, 07:53 AM
#303
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 467
The litigation on the 10 additional 700's is probably a situation of "too little, too late". If Mesa had not thrown away all of their cash in the Kunpeng and Aloha/Hawaiian debacles and concentrated on a quality operation, then they would have been able to finance the 10 optional 700's within the contractual deadline.
The 20 700's already in service are under contract until 2018. The only chance Mesa has of getting the 10 optional 700's under contract now would probably have to be a very favorable reorganization, possibly including a Delta cash settlement that would provide some financing for them. A pretty long shot.
winglet
02-02-2010, 08:50 AM
#304
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Banker....UGH!
Posts: 75
mwa1,
Here is a breakdown of the 178 Aircraft Mesa fleet:
20 Beech 1900D's
16 Leased DHC 8's
2 Owned CRJ-200's
46 Leased CRJ-200's
8 Owned CRJ-700's
12 Leased CRJ-700's
14 Owned CRJ-900's
24 Leased CRJ-900's
36 Leased ERJ 145's
Total: 178
38 CRJ-900's, 8 CRJ-200's, and 6 Dash-8's are flying as USAirways Express.
20 CRJ-700's, 18 CRJ-200's and 10 Dash-8's remained flying as United Express on Jan. 5th, 2010.
The contract for the United Express CRJ-200's and Dash-8's expires in April, 2010.
(The addition of 10 optional CRJ-700's to the contract is under litigation).
22 ERJ's are flying under a court injunction as Delta Connection on the Freedom Airlines certificate.
5 CRJ-200's are flying as GO!/Mokulele.
Hypothetical Results:
On December 31st, 2009, there were 1085 active pilots on the roster and 50 on LOA. There were 127 aircraft in operation or 8.54 pilots per aircraft (This includes management pilots and instructors).
After April there will be only 99 aircraft flying (38 900's, 20 700's, 13 200's, 6 Dash 8's, and 22 ERJ's). If the 8.54 pilot/aircraft ratio holds, then approximately 842 pilots would be required.
If Mesa's reorganization plan includes a CRJ-700/900 fleet, GO!/Mokulele and Freedom/Delta Connection, then there would be 85 aircraft or approximately 726 pilots required.
If Mesa finds a way to add the 10 optional United Express CRJ-700's, that would require approximately 85 pilots bringing the total pilots required back up to approximately 811.
If Mesa's reorganization plan doesn't include the Freedom/Delta Connection aircraft or the 10 optional United Express 700's, then there would be 63 aircraft or approximately 539 pilots required.
Don't forget that this is all hypothetical and there are many more scenarios that could be discussed. Nobody knows what the final outcome of the bankruptcy will be and I have no way of knowing what sort of staffing levels would be implemented.
Remember also that there are over 3400 total employees at Mesa Air Group.
Good luck to all...
winglet
Here is a breakdown of the 178 Aircraft Mesa fleet:
20 Beech 1900D's
16 Leased DHC 8's
2 Owned CRJ-200's
46 Leased CRJ-200's
8 Owned CRJ-700's
12 Leased CRJ-700's
14 Owned CRJ-900's
24 Leased CRJ-900's
36 Leased ERJ 145's
Total: 178
38 CRJ-900's, 8 CRJ-200's, and 6 Dash-8's are flying as USAirways Express.
20 CRJ-700's, 18 CRJ-200's and 10 Dash-8's remained flying as United Express on Jan. 5th, 2010.
The contract for the United Express CRJ-200's and Dash-8's expires in April, 2010.
(The addition of 10 optional CRJ-700's to the contract is under litigation).
22 ERJ's are flying under a court injunction as Delta Connection on the Freedom Airlines certificate.
5 CRJ-200's are flying as GO!/Mokulele.
Hypothetical Results:
On December 31st, 2009, there were 1085 active pilots on the roster and 50 on LOA. There were 127 aircraft in operation or 8.54 pilots per aircraft (This includes management pilots and instructors).
After April there will be only 99 aircraft flying (38 900's, 20 700's, 13 200's, 6 Dash 8's, and 22 ERJ's). If the 8.54 pilot/aircraft ratio holds, then approximately 842 pilots would be required.
If Mesa's reorganization plan includes a CRJ-700/900 fleet, GO!/Mokulele and Freedom/Delta Connection, then there would be 85 aircraft or approximately 726 pilots required.
If Mesa finds a way to add the 10 optional United Express CRJ-700's, that would require approximately 85 pilots bringing the total pilots required back up to approximately 811.
If Mesa's reorganization plan doesn't include the Freedom/Delta Connection aircraft or the 10 optional United Express 700's, then there would be 63 aircraft or approximately 539 pilots required.
Don't forget that this is all hypothetical and there are many more scenarios that could be discussed. Nobody knows what the final outcome of the bankruptcy will be and I have no way of knowing what sort of staffing levels would be implemented.
Remember also that there are over 3400 total employees at Mesa Air Group.
Good luck to all...
winglet
02-02-2010, 08:50 AM
#305
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 126
I hate to be the stick in the mud but it makes no sense to me that a contract can expire but cannot be cancelled because it has broken. Can the Judge extend the exp. date on the united contract if stay goes past april? I don't think so! The question I think is how fast the other ailines can replace the lift lost with the best deals..
02-02-2010, 12:03 PM
#306
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 467
I hate to be the stick in the mud but it makes no sense to me that a contract can expire but cannot be cancelled because it has broken. Can the Judge extend the exp. date on the united contract if stay goes past april? I don't think so! The question I think is how fast the other ailines can replace the lift lost with the best deals..
A lot of laws don't make sense. That's why there are teams of lawyers pouring over reams of documents as we speak.
Code-Share Contracts
There can exist multiple contracts per code-share partner. Many have been amended, extended, and/or modified. The details of these contracts are not normally made public. The details of some contracts are available because parts of them have been disclosed in previous court cases. During bankruptcy some contract details will be exposed. Many other details will only be seen by the Creditor's Committee, the Trustee, and the Judge because they may expose sensitive business plans, proprietery information, negotiated rates, etc.
There are separate and different United contracts.
The MAG/United Express contract for the 26 CRJ-200's and the 10 Dash 8's ends in April, 2010. United had an option to extend the code-share agreement on the 26 CRJ-200's for five years and chose not to do so.
The amended contract for the 20 CRJ-700's expires in groups of five aircraft (December 31, 2011, December 31, 2012, December 31, 2013, and October 31, 2018). This contract had an option to add 10 more CRJ-700's upon the removal of the CRJ-200's. United and Mesa disagreed on the terms of this contract prior to Mesa's bankruptcy and United took Mesa to District Court in Illinois to prevent Mesa from adding the 10 700's. Similar to the Delta/Mesa litigation in the District Court of Atlanta, the United/Mesa litigation is also under a stay during the bankruptcy.
During the Bankruptcy Proceedings:
The executory contracts that were in place are to be honored.
The executory contracts that are under an injunction are to be honored.
The executory contracts that were set to expire will expire.
The contracts under litigation are stayed (not to be confused with the automatic stay of the Creditors).
(Mesa is trying to have the Mesa/Delta litigation moved from Atlanta District Court to the New York Bankruptcy Court).
All of this will be reviewed during the bankruptcy proceedings and intense negotiations amongst the Debtor, the Committee, the Trustee, and the Judge. The Code-Share partners can submit objections or offer settlements, amendments, extensions, or modifications but they will not be free to cancel an existing contract during bankruptcy without all parties in agreement. Nobody will know what the outcome will be until the Final Decree.
After Bankruptcy
If Mesa successfully reorganizes then there is nothing stopping the code-share partners from attempting to terminate the contracts. This was always an option before the bankruptcy was declared and will always be an option after reorganization.
Cancelling the contracts would most likely lead to immediate litigation in a district court. This would be very, very expensive for all parties involved and these cases don't usually go very well for either side. This is what Delta attempted and look how that is going for them.
winglet
Last edited by winglet; 02-02-2010 at 03:28 PM.
02-02-2010, 04:15 PM
#307
Go Knights Go
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: OCC/Dispatch
Posts: 261
I agree,
The litigation on the 10 additional 700's is probably a situation of "too little, too late". If Mesa had not thrown away all of their cash in the Kunpeng and Aloha/Hawaiian debacles and concentrated on a quality operation, then they would have been able to finance the 10 optional 700's within the contractual deadline.
The 20 700's already in service are under contract until 2018. The only chance Mesa has of getting the 10 optional 700's under contract now would probably have to be a very favorable reorganization, possibly including a Delta cash settlement that would provide some financing for them. A pretty long shot.
There is a status conference today concerning the transfer of the Delta litigation from Atlanta District Court to the New York Bankruptcy Court. This places Delta between a "rock and a hard place" (The Atlanta court that awarded Mesa an injunction and the New York court that places the matter in the hands of the Creditors).
winglet
The litigation on the 10 additional 700's is probably a situation of "too little, too late". If Mesa had not thrown away all of their cash in the Kunpeng and Aloha/Hawaiian debacles and concentrated on a quality operation, then they would have been able to finance the 10 optional 700's within the contractual deadline.
The 20 700's already in service are under contract until 2018. The only chance Mesa has of getting the 10 optional 700's under contract now would probably have to be a very favorable reorganization, possibly including a Delta cash settlement that would provide some financing for them. A pretty long shot.
There is a status conference today concerning the transfer of the Delta litigation from Atlanta District Court to the New York Bankruptcy Court. This places Delta between a "rock and a hard place" (The Atlanta court that awarded Mesa an injunction and the New York court that places the matter in the hands of the Creditors).
winglet
What is it that would be worse for DL having this tried in bankruptcy court?
They could possibly stand to rid themselves of Mesa or buy there way out. They could also be held tov the contract but could seek to end it after reorganization. My thinking is DL could gamble and possibly win in BK and rid themselves of the costs associated with the ongoing case, which will probably drag on until that contract ends.
02-02-2010, 04:38 PM
#308
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 467
The DL issue confuses me. DL is fighting the transfer and attempting to keep the case in a court that appears to favor Mesa's argument.
What is it that would be worse for DL having this tried in bankruptcy court?
They could possibly stand to rid themselves of Mesa or buy there way out. They could also be held tov the contract but could seek to end it after reorganization. My thinking is DL could gamble and possibly win in BK and rid themselves of the costs associated with the ongoing case, which will probably drag on until that contract ends.
What is it that would be worse for DL having this tried in bankruptcy court?
They could possibly stand to rid themselves of Mesa or buy there way out. They could also be held tov the contract but could seek to end it after reorganization. My thinking is DL could gamble and possibly win in BK and rid themselves of the costs associated with the ongoing case, which will probably drag on until that contract ends.
The Creditor's Committee is tasked with determining how to get the best returns out of a bankrupt Mesa. They have two choices: Chapter 7 Liquidation or Chapter 11 Reorganization. They know that a liquidated Mesa is pretty much worthless. They also know that Mesa's exisiting contracts will still bring in a large amount of revenue. They also know that the Delta contract is worth alot either through an assumption of the contract or termination settlement. Don't forget that some of the Creditors have 22 aircraft under contract with Freedom. They would much rather work them for Delta and collect the lease from Mesa than park them with no buyers.
Delta knows that in the New York courts the Creditor Committee will prefer to either let Mesa assume the contract or put pressure on Delta to settle the issue with a truckload of cash. Perhaps Delta feels that in their hometown Atlanta court they at least have a chance at a more favorable ruling.
winglet
Last edited by winglet; 02-02-2010 at 05:10 PM.
02-02-2010, 07:43 PM
#309
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Correct
Posts: 109
02-02-2010, 07:57 PM
#310
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 298
I HATE 570ML. I was at WAR with that airplane. I have never in my life flown such a disaster. Every leg was awful, I'm not even lying. What a miserable piece of crap it is. I hope it rots in the desert where it belongs. Ahhhhh!!!!
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