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10-29-2008, 11:04 AM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330 capt
Posts: 236
Well, sure, but the percentage losses for DL under DOH are far greater than what NW suffers under our ratio proposal. The NW propsal is entirely centered around one, single aspect of the future,--attrition, not age 65 attrition, but age 62.4 attrition! -- it effectively sacrifices the current, real, tangible seniority, (and thus the future seniority) of 98% of the DL pilots to preserve a future, speculative (62.4) expected seniority for NW. In the process it reaps a current seniority windfall for NW. It allocates current and future jobs behind the fences in an extremely naive, biased manner, using best-case future scenarios for NW and worse-case for DAL. "Predictions are difficult, especially about the future" "...nor can we isolate or insulate anyone against the vagaries of the future" This SLI is about pilot jobs and the economic benefits they bring to the merger. If the sole issue of NW attrition can be addressed ---without sacrificing the current relative and actual seniority that DL pilots enjoy, and would at worse continue to enjoy as a stand -alone, then we would have some basis for an agreement. We will not gamble or sacrifice our current or future seniority based on NW's over simplified and tidy version of the future. To paraphrase: "talk about carreer expectations is a little like dreaming about income expectations at a roulette table" Relative seniority as a concept, with adjustments for realistic expected attrition, comes closest to "insulating" us both from those "vagaries of a roulette table".
10-29-2008, 11:07 AM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Why I spent so much time defending pure DOH eh?
As I said somewhere in another post, the differences between our two positions is 909 numbers for me personally as a 9/95 hire. You can drive a truck through that gap. Yes, I'm much better off with DOH than the category list and why I'm not betting the house on it.
Step back from the punch bowl and catch a breath........and drink the beer I just gave ya.
Ferd
As I said somewhere in another post, the differences between our two positions is 909 numbers for me personally as a 9/95 hire. You can drive a truck through that gap. Yes, I'm much better off with DOH than the category list and why I'm not betting the house on it.
Step back from the punch bowl and catch a breath........and drink the beer I just gave ya.
Ferd
10-29-2008, 11:36 AM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330 capt
Posts: 236
"Potentially" gets him to Amsterdam..etc.---Isn't NW 757 a combined category? Doesn't the international flying go way senior? JFK ER flying is all (100%) international, with probably 90% across the Atlantic. This is actual flying, not "potential". I would venture to say that "DL 07' hire" actual international block hours flown exceeds by a wide margin the "NW 07' hire" actual or even potential international block hours flown. To compare NW newhires ability to fly international wide body with their counterparts at DL is quite a stretch. "More destinations than he can shake a stick at?"
I think if you do a comparison of international destinations you'll find that....oh, thats right, nevermind, any destination south of Florida doesn't "count" as international ...I forgot that commonly accepted industry "rule" (we'll just pretend one of the Continents on our planet doesn't exist as an "international" destination)
I think if you do a comparison of international destinations you'll find that....oh, thats right, nevermind, any destination south of Florida doesn't "count" as international ...I forgot that commonly accepted industry "rule" (we'll just pretend one of the Continents on our planet doesn't exist as an "international" destination)
10-29-2008, 12:02 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330 capt
Posts: 236
Why I spent so much time defending pure DOH eh?
As I said somewhere in another post, the differences between our two positions is 909 numbers for me personally as a 9/95 hire. You can drive a truck through that gap. Yes, I'm much better off with DOH than the category list and why I'm not betting the house on it.
Step back from the punch bowl and catch a breath........and drink the beer I just gave ya.
Ferd
As I said somewhere in another post, the differences between our two positions is 909 numbers for me personally as a 9/95 hire. You can drive a truck through that gap. Yes, I'm much better off with DOH than the category list and why I'm not betting the house on it.
Step back from the punch bowl and catch a breath........and drink the beer I just gave ya.
Ferd
Thanks for the beer, though. As to your post, the difference for me would be 1400 numbers or 11% relative, w/ NW's proposal. With DL's it would be 0% relative difference. What a choice, huh? ...I think rather than having a beer, I'll have a shot of tequila!!
10-29-2008, 02:28 PM
#116
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,992
I hate to interrupt this string of confrontational posts with a question, but how long does it take to load that plane? It seems to me like it takes forever to board and de-plane our 757's. It must seem like an eternity on the 757-300, especially if you are laying over with the FA's and the only thing between you and a cold one is the Griswalds getting their collective butts off the plane. Also, are tail-strikes an issue with the -300?
Scoop
10-29-2008, 02:53 PM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Scoop,
Yeah they are a pain in the arse. I want to say 45 minutes for boarding? (vs 40 for a -200). And, you are so right for unloading. I've never timed it but it is forever. Just as an example, going into HNL one night we followed one of your 767s to the gate and pulled in about the same time. The Delta guys were curbside when we walked out..........
What makes it worse is the -300 is really 3 classes. First, coach and flip flop. The back section is actually a smaller seat pitch and guess where all the families with kids on cheep tickets are? Gathering the kids, seats and "stuff" REALLY takes forever.
I think we have only dragged one tail, on landing as I recall. They redesigned the stab (I think) and they actually land alot flatter than a -200.
Ferd
Yeah they are a pain in the arse. I want to say 45 minutes for boarding? (vs 40 for a -200). And, you are so right for unloading. I've never timed it but it is forever. Just as an example, going into HNL one night we followed one of your 767s to the gate and pulled in about the same time. The Delta guys were curbside when we walked out..........
What makes it worse is the -300 is really 3 classes. First, coach and flip flop. The back section is actually a smaller seat pitch and guess where all the families with kids on cheep tickets are? Gathering the kids, seats and "stuff" REALLY takes forever.
I think we have only dragged one tail, on landing as I recall. They redesigned the stab (I think) and they actually land alot flatter than a -200.
Ferd
10-29-2008, 02:59 PM
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,947
I actually did time the deplaning once, when I was in the aft galley F/A jumpseat (every seat full) and figured this was a good chance.
Twelve minutes from door 2L open until I got out! F/A said it's always like that.
Twelve minutes from door 2L open until I got out! F/A said it's always like that.
10-29-2008, 06:57 PM
#119
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Scoop,
Yeah they are a pain in the arse. I want to say 45 minutes for boarding? (vs 40 for a -200). And, you are so right for unloading. I've never timed it but it is forever. Just as an example, going into HNL one night we followed one of your 767s to the gate and pulled in about the same time. The Delta guys were curbside when we walked out..........
Ferd
Yeah they are a pain in the arse. I want to say 45 minutes for boarding? (vs 40 for a -200). And, you are so right for unloading. I've never timed it but it is forever. Just as an example, going into HNL one night we followed one of your 767s to the gate and pulled in about the same time. The Delta guys were curbside when we walked out..........
Ferd
That is because DAL Flight Attendants are taught to say "Welcome to Las Vegas" as they open the door at unloading. People get off the aircraft as if a vacuum hoses was put to the door.
10-30-2008, 12:47 AM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
It's interesting how we're all checking to see what percentage (of relative seniority) we gain or lose with either proposal. Does that mean that a list which allows you to keep the same relative percentage would be fair to the most people? That would sound good to me. (FWIW, I lose 11% with NWALPA's proposal, and gain .75% under DALPA's)
Welcome aboard to the NWA guys; the vino tinto's on me if we end up in Barcelona together!
Welcome aboard to the NWA guys; the vino tinto's on me if we end up in Barcelona together!
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