Eric Stratton

It was said on here the staple was because the dc9 is smaller than anything delta has even though the -50 has one more seat than the 737-700.

newKnow

Dude,

When you use quotes you are supposed to cite EXACTLY what the person you are quoting said.

I said...."more cities in Asia than your "international wide body first officer at DAL" can shake a stick at."

I wasn't comparing international destinations. I wasn't even comparing the two positions. I was only trying to point out to tsquare that it wouldn't be a shock for a NWA new hire to find himself flying over the pond. He or she if they wanted to, could have bid the 757.

Those that have, are trained in international procedures and have SIC types. So, any higher eniority they would get over a DAL new hire is not an upwards windfall for them, and vice versa. Basically, I was only pointing out that all NWA new hires are not stuck on the DC-9 like he insinuated.

This is a merger of equals and NWA has international flying just as DAL does. So, a fairly merged seniority list is not going to shock any pilots as to what and where they can fly.

So, would it be horrible if a NWA '07 hire was senior to a DAL '08 hire on the new list? Do you think you are really giving him/her something so great that he doesn't have availiable to him/her already? I don't think so.

New K Now

slowplay

Isn't the same true of the NWA A319-100? How are the -9's ranked against the A319 on NWA's own pay/progression table?

If the 747-400 is Super Premium, what's a DC-9? I forgot, overengineered!

wiggy

I agree with you almost 100%, johnso. But I would modify your last sentence: ......positions...seniority...which is determined by DOH AT YOUR OWN COMPANY. This last is undeniably true, johnso, otherwise we would not be having this discussion about who can hold better equipment at our respective airlines. If, for example, NW newhires could consistently hold 100% 757 or A330 international (and only international) and those attendant payrates, then this particular aspect of this discussion would be moot. But they can't, if they could, you know they would. But they can't hold the same as a DL newhire, it is a fact. And I agree that that fact should not influence their respective seniority integration. The 400 pilot staple is obviously tied to the jeopardy of the DC-9, (the equipment brought to the merger, not the seniority (or lack thereof) of the pilots) If the NW pilots "bring" an uneconomical asset to the merger, and that asset is subequently retired, for whatever reason (and that reason, at any conceivable bottom line, is that the asset is uneconomical)-- why should DL pilots be put in danger of furlough? I will go on record as saying that the proposed staple is not fair, I think it could be handled some other way..fences, perhaps. The point is I think we both acknowledge the risk, and we could come to a compromise over the risk that the DC-9 represents. Now, how do we address the unfairness, for one example, among many, of the NW proposal that simply "places" or "staples" approx. 800 NW pilots between DL seniority numbers 210 and 211 (or thereabouts)? Those POSITIONS being very senior 767-400 CA "blockholders" / junior 777 captains. One DL pilot retains that 2% seniority and it's equipt. position while the other falls to 12% to meet in the "middle" a NW pilot who came from 24% (and it's equivalent POSITION at NW of A320 CA!!! ( these are stovepipe positions..apples to apples) Bottom line, DL guy loses 10% and is demoted to junior 76ER, NW guy gains 12% and is promoted to 76ER. I know your answer is "fences" ( which, of course, implicitly acknowledges the unfairness of DOH) but fences make MANY assumptions about the future, and we all know about assumptions in this industry. Much like the complaints of your bottom 400 proposed "staples", why should we suffer a huge loss of seniority now for events, both forseen and unanticipated, that may or may not occur in the future? (I think we can address the NW attrition concerns inside the framework of ratios) As a practical matter, the NW proposal is a sure recipe for future litigation/arbitration as the combined airline evolves its demographics, equipment, routes, basing, etc...etc.

Ferd149

Slow,

One of those little trivia questions out of the union contract. Management insisted that all DC-9s be paid a fleet rate. IE, a DC-9-50 (125 seats) was paid the same as a DC-9-30 (100 seats) So, when the 319s showed up, we turned the worm and insisted they be paid the fleet rated or like an A-320. Now you can discuss trivia with the best of us

Ferd

Ferd149

Johnso29........you don't understand the category list, your position is not based on what you're currently on. Just a way of stovepiping the ratio.

Wiggy........you seem like a real smart guy but you do see that the category list is as big a non-starter and DOH, right?

Cogf16

Ferd,

Thanks for the friendly words. They are few and far between but I know that I am a big part of that! Yes a ratio is probably the answer and I see how the snapshot on day 1 doesn't look so good for you guys in the future. However, if we modify it now to account for the near term, we hurt the Delta guys in the long term when our retirements outpace yours in about 15 yrs. Tough question

Cog

wiggy

[quote=newKnow;488032]Dude,

I said...."more cities in Asia than your "international wide body first officer at DAL" can shake a stick at."
I know, I can read, I was just yanking your chain. See my post to johnso29 regarding this seniority "controversy".


This is a merger of equals and NWA has international flying just as DAL does. So, a fairly merged seniority list is not going to shock any pilots as to what and where they can fly.
Yes, and DOH with the fences you propose ain't it. Your proposed list and the fence on the 767ER, for example, will result in the entire top 1/3 of the ER category being all NW, well before 10 years are up.

newKnow

[quote=wiggy;488079]
Aaahh, I see. Hey!! You have got to use the smiley face when you are yanking my chain.

Ferd149

[quote=newKnow;488091]Actually, I want to see a different kind of face when I'm getting my chain yanked.

Oh crap, wrong forum