Bucking Bar

And the RJ pilots come with zero longevity for pay and benefits.
Yes, it is. With the promulgation of all the alter ego names, ASA, Comair, SkyWest, Freedom, Mesa, Chautauqua, Mesa, Mesaba, Compass, Pinnacle, Mid West, Shuttle America, Mid Atlantic, etc... airlines can ebb and flow, pruning longevity with their displaced pilots until the numbers get right again and they can grow. These outsourcing companies have much higher turn over, resulting in much lower crew costs.

These third generation RJ's will have numbers that approach a 757's. Both Pratt and GE are working on new RJ engine programs promising another 12% efficiency gain (engines that will not fit on a 737, but the way).

What is needed is a fundamental shift in the way our membership views scope. These RJ's are very capable airplanes and are better replacements for many of our older narrowbody jets than anything else on the market. Instead of scoping this flying out, we need to scope it in.

Stapling Compass and capturing the E170 flying would have been easier months ago than it is now. It is easier to do now than it will be a year from now.

Fly4hire

You sound a lot like ~~~~^~~~~ over on flightinfo.com - same?

As to stapling, how do you propose it be actually accomplished given the fact that doing so is not in the interest of either DAL or NWA Inc. and their plans as you see them? I really don't see how ALPA is any position to force the issue.

Bucking Bar

1. No. How ironic would that be? An "alter ego" Fins.

2. Well they needed something when everyone sat down to do the JPWA. Now they need one list. Give them a list with the Compass pilots on the bottom of it.

People act like we would need a new contract. We would not. Leave Compass where it is, with its contract & scope, but have those airplanes flown by Delta pilots. Voila - Delta pilots captured the E170. Cost $0, zilch, nada. In fact, leave in place the scope that limits Compass. If management wants to grow it, make them come to us, at least it will be our pilots at that time.

Result = scope line moved in our favor. If we want to fix the "C" scale later, then we fix it during Section 6. At least we'll have some of the DC9 replacements in the mean time.

It is easier and more effective to fence something in, as opposed to fencing something out - particularly if you want to control it.

Fly4hire

Well as I understand it they are still arguing over numbers of pilots on each respective list. Now add how many E170 pilots on each side? Why not CRJ900's, or 700's or even 200's?

Gee we could see our respective mainline career progression potentially watered down by the relative or dynamic factor of these SJ pilots. Hmmmm.

It still does not address the Co still has to agree to it. The JPWA is done. I don't think this can be injected into the arbitration process at this point, even if both sides wanted to. Bottom line is DAL Inc. has to see an advantage to it, and the their advantage is in keeping them separate.

FWIW, I don't disagree with you, but as they say, the devil is in the details....

Bucking Bar

Fly4hire:

I'm not sure I follow your thinking. Compass has a bilateral flow. In effect, they are already stapled. A staple below the NWA/DAL list is the ONLY way this could happen. Your career progression could only be helped. More below you and a left seat bid, if you wanted it.

Staple has to be the price of admission to the "World's Premier Airline."

Chances of any of his happening are near nil, but if we want to protect our narrowbody flying, we need to start thinking about these sort of solutions. I think it will be impossible to scope them out once they get big & they get big expectations (ex: Comair's DFR suit & shennanigans). Better to scope them in.

Yes you are right about the Co's interest, but it would not cost anything and labor harmony is a good thing.

Ferd149

BB,

I think we have kicked this around before. What to do with Mesaba? They have a flow agreement of some type also. So, the first step would be to merge Mesaba and Compass.......I would argue DOH since Compass is still small.........and then staple as you suggest.

My question for you guys is then what about ComAir? Would they try some sort of "me too"? Since they don't have a flow agreement could we ignore them (my choice if I get a vote).

Ferd

Fly4hire

The Co. does not want labor harmony, and will attempt to continue to outsource. It is all upside for us and downside for them. They will never agree to it even if it saves them money. It would reduce their negotiating leverage if nothing else.

acl65pilot

Yes, and it is our job to make it happen. All we are talking about is the future of our professions.

Bucking Bar

ACL:

Agreed, this is for the future of our profession and has to be a higher priority in our negotiations.

Ferd:

IMHO a staple should be the price for admission to the "World's Premier Airline" from DCI. If that were the condition, I'd leave the choice (and responsibility for that choice) up to their reps. But, we are a long way from convincing anyone that Compass is even a good idea, much less expanding the concept beyond that point.

Compass is kind of a special case because we have a de-facto one list with them already. Nothing against Mesaba, we simply don't have the same contractual or representational relationship.

I'm reading the SLI has been passed off to arbitrators with no agreements between our reps on the actual list. As such, the window of opportunity for my Compass idea might be closing until section 6 (or until the Company wants more scope relief).

Fly 4:

I see your point. It will probably hinge on where the 12,500 Delta pilots place our priorities in the next section 6 opportunity.

Ferd149

BB,

Oh I'm sure it's NOT a good idea. One of the two reasons I voted against our bankruptcy contract (this and duration). Those of us on the bottom half said no to NEWCO (turned into Compass) and then let it get shoved up our ----- anyway.

I agree, hitting it hard at section 6 may be as good as it gets now........I'll be retired by then.

Ferd