NWA/DELTA Roadshows
05-07-2008, 06:26 PM
#71
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I've been away from my computer for a bit, but would like to get back to something posted by NWA320pilot:
Paraphrasing; He indicated that upward movement (via retirements) would be via pre-merger carrier. That is, when a former NWA pilot retires all NWA pilots junior to the retiree move up a number, while all former DAL pilots remain stagnant.
But further on in the post, he says (again paraphrasing) "that upon retirement of (any) aircraft would be based on seniority within DAL since we will all be Delta pilots post merger"
Please correct any misperception on my point.
That, to me, is grossly unfair. The senior NWA guys reap all of the benefits of their pilot retirements. However, the junior Delta pilots potentially get furloughed as the oldest aircraft (former NWA) are retired.
Please tell me I misunderstood.
Paraphrasing; He indicated that upward movement (via retirements) would be via pre-merger carrier. That is, when a former NWA pilot retires all NWA pilots junior to the retiree move up a number, while all former DAL pilots remain stagnant.
But further on in the post, he says (again paraphrasing) "that upon retirement of (any) aircraft would be based on seniority within DAL since we will all be Delta pilots post merger"
Please correct any misperception on my point.
That, to me, is grossly unfair. The senior NWA guys reap all of the benefits of their pilot retirements. However, the junior Delta pilots potentially get furloughed as the oldest aircraft (former NWA) are retired.
Please tell me I misunderstood.
Carl
05-07-2008, 06:28 PM
#72
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05-07-2008, 06:39 PM
#73
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Position: 765-A
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05-07-2008, 06:53 PM
#74
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: FO forever
Posts: 413
yeap he is
keenster
05-07-2008, 06:59 PM
#75
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: FO forever
Posts: 413
talking about my own post
If you gave NWA DOH then we would not need to move up when a NWA guy retires. I did not get the advantage of 2000 guys going early. Relative senority puts 1500 delta guys infront of me that are junior to me date of hire also putting them in line for the NWA retirements comingup. You are marching gleefully past me with relative senority based on my DOH. So you want to keep your relative position and get a huge advancement in the nwa side bypassing many guys with senior dates of hire. Not looking for an adjustment premerger. Just trying to keep our retirement moveups based on DOH which we have now. You guys have an automatic fence in that most of your senior guys are young and as long as you get no bump no flush, you will be in your seat for a long time and the Delta guys that are junior will not be moving up real soon on the Delta side either. You are not the vehicle to help Nwa guys for premerger retirements. You are the problem because you want to take our retirements with junior DOH senority. Do you have the picture yet.
respectfully
keenster
respectfully
keenster
keenster
05-07-2008, 07:38 PM
#76
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 27
2000 is WAY off. See the info below copied from another thread.
"On both this forum and in personal conversations with NWA pilots I have found that they have been given some poor information about the Delta early retirements. Most are under the impression that Delta pilots gained thousands of numbers. Here are the actual numbers.
In the three years before we faced liquidity shortfall (10/1/2002 – 10/1/2005) we had about 2,200 pilots retire. About 1,450 of those pilots would have retired by December 2007 (when the FAA retirement age changed). Of those 750 left, about 250 were on long term disability. Of the 450 left, 100 would not be in the top 33% of our list today. Therefore, you are talking about 350 pilots that early retired that held active flying positions and would be in the top 33% on our list. A significant number but not the “thousands” that the Northwest pilots expect.
Note: Of the remaining 350 pilots some would have been lost to attrition so the actual number would even be a bit smaller."
If you think about it logically the Mass Exodus happened almost 4 years ago and as most of the guys balling early were in their late 50's anyway most would have been gone before "age 65 rule change" not to mention the merger announcement.
Deez
"On both this forum and in personal conversations with NWA pilots I have found that they have been given some poor information about the Delta early retirements. Most are under the impression that Delta pilots gained thousands of numbers. Here are the actual numbers.
In the three years before we faced liquidity shortfall (10/1/2002 – 10/1/2005) we had about 2,200 pilots retire. About 1,450 of those pilots would have retired by December 2007 (when the FAA retirement age changed). Of those 750 left, about 250 were on long term disability. Of the 450 left, 100 would not be in the top 33% of our list today. Therefore, you are talking about 350 pilots that early retired that held active flying positions and would be in the top 33% on our list. A significant number but not the “thousands” that the Northwest pilots expect.
Note: Of the remaining 350 pilots some would have been lost to attrition so the actual number would even be a bit smaller."
If you think about it logically the Mass Exodus happened almost 4 years ago and as most of the guys balling early were in their late 50's anyway most would have been gone before "age 65 rule change" not to mention the merger announcement.
Deez
Thanks for pointing out the true number of DAL retirements Deez. The "rapid advancement" urban legend put forth by some NWA pilots is totally off the mark. The other half of the DAL early retirements equation that was not mentioned was all of the the A/C retirements. Since 9/11 DAL has retired L-1011s, MD-11s, 767-200s, 727s, and 737-200s. The truth is that instead of rapid advancement many DAL pilots had stagnation and most went backward. Just ask the 1200+ furloughed pilots about advancement. Only recently with new A/C arrivals has there been advancement. NWA suffered similar lack of growth and advancement after 9/11 and in BK but to claim that DAL pilot benefited greatly at that time is a crock. I wonder if any NWA pilots know anything about the PRP program.
2themoon
05-08-2008, 12:20 AM
#78
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Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: non acceptus excretus
Posts: 561
Dave may not be all that junior but Bill Bartells is as is Jon Lewis and any one more LEC rep which by roll call vote effectively control the MEC and have for the past few years, look back to the Innerbichlerian years the senior guys haven't been in control for quit a while. Even Mark McClain wasn't all that senior and Neville Chamberlain that he was he wasn't in the pocket of any particular senior pilots issues.......... Green maybe but certainly not JUST senior. If Senior issues had prevailed we would have augmented staffing rules like we used to and Delta still does. That is 2 Captains and 2 FO's .... Just how it is.
05-08-2008, 05:51 AM
#79
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330 capt
Posts: 236
I have mentioned this situation several times as to what relative seniority does to my senority and no Delta guy has stepped up to the plate to tell me why 1500 junior DOH delta guys should go in front of me and be in line for the nwa RETIREMENTS coming up. Maybe I have a good point here in that no one wants to debate me on this. I sure am anxious to get at those Delta retirements coming up.
keenster
keenster
. Many of our post sept. 85' hires retired. The point is, DAL pilots are inherently, demographically younger than NWA. Why should 1500 "junior DOH" delta guys go in front of you? -They already ARE "in front" of you-by aircraft position/pay/benefits/workrules...everything except date-of-hire. A sept.85' hire at dal is a lineholder captain on every widebody we have. ALPA merger policy states no windfalls and try to preserve or improve the status-quo. Do you really deserve to jump up to about 250 of a 7300 pilot list, be a line-holding widebody captain making way more money/benefits than you are now?-all based on having been hired about the same time as DAL's #250 pilot, and you coming from about(I estimate) 1000-1500 on 5300 pilot list? Major,major windfall there, don't you think? The only compromise I can see is if you get some of your expected advancement and DAL pilots of your DOH give up some of their actual position, that they are flying right now, as we speak,(and have been doing so for several years, and have always had a reasonable expectation to continue to do so.) I understand your position, I don't want to be "in line" for any NWA retirements and I'm sure you don't want to suddenly, overnight, become a line-holding, international widebody captain. It is a dilemma, with no right or wrong answer, surely you see that.Wiggy: DAL#365 DOH 27dec.85 5% on DAL system list, #68 of 322 on 767er ATL (capt.)
Last edited by wiggy; 05-08-2008 at 10:19 AM.
05-08-2008, 03:24 PM
#80
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Dave is the MEC Chairman and as such, he cannot vote. The Chairman simply presides over meetings. The people who actually vote (LEC reps) are very junior.
Carl
