NWA/DELTA Roadshows
05-09-2008, 10:25 AM
#91
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B-737 Pilot
Posts: 1,617
Right On!
After reading what you are attempting to do, I thought you might like to hear a little history of the most recent acquisition and seniority list integration.
I am one of the Pan Am pilots who was "acquired" (Delta term) in 1991. I write this email to you as a warning about what can happen in your quest for a combined list. Do not trust Delta. Do not trust ALPA. We call one another brothers at ALPA until it is a choice between you or a mainline Delta pilot...then there is no choice. You will be sold out by ALPA or used by ALPA for the benefit of the Delta mainline pilots. I speak from experience.
And we are supposed to think that we are going to get a fair deal.
I am one of the Pan Am pilots who was "acquired" (Delta term) in 1991. I write this email to you as a warning about what can happen in your quest for a combined list. Do not trust Delta. Do not trust ALPA. We call one another brothers at ALPA until it is a choice between you or a mainline Delta pilot...then there is no choice. You will be sold out by ALPA or used by ALPA for the benefit of the Delta mainline pilots. I speak from experience.
And we are supposed to think that we are going to get a fair deal.
05-09-2008, 12:02 PM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Road construction signholder
Posts: 2,434
Agree with what? Any former Pan Am guys still on the seniority list are all international captains. I think they are doing quite well compared to their Pan Am brethren that were not brought over.
Furthermore, you would be amazed at the number of former Pan Am guys who double-downbidded to FE after reaching Age 60...only to go out on long-term disability and live for years on the disability teat.
Furthermore, you would be amazed at the number of former Pan Am guys who double-downbidded to FE after reaching Age 60...only to go out on long-term disability and live for years on the disability teat.
05-09-2008, 12:51 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: B777 Left
Posts: 736
A couple of points about the Pan Am aquisition. Not one single person involved in the integration (management and ALPA) are still on the property. Ask what Pan Am did for its own, ie allowing Professional engineers to downbid to the 727 in order that they go to Delta. Ask about junior 727 copilots that had downgrade bids to FE prior to the aquisition, but were bumped out of those downgrade positions, thus having to stay in their seat and not allowed (by Pan Am's Alpa) to downgrade to be senior engineers (because the Prof FEs were allowed to). The whole thing was a mess, because it was not done in system seniorty but rather seat seniority and only a certain percentage were allowed to come over.
When a number of pilots at PanAm were left out in the cold, Delta interviewed and hired quite a few. Unfortunately, management said it was a take it or leave it. Read the book SkyGods and see what the general concensus was of the whole deal. Most of the guys I flew with were grateful the way things worked out. They were out of the mess that Ed Aker had created at PanAm. Ed Acker was PanAm's Leo Mullin.
When a number of pilots at PanAm were left out in the cold, Delta interviewed and hired quite a few. Unfortunately, management said it was a take it or leave it. Read the book SkyGods and see what the general concensus was of the whole deal. Most of the guys I flew with were grateful the way things worked out. They were out of the mess that Ed Aker had created at PanAm. Ed Acker was PanAm's Leo Mullin.
05-09-2008, 03:36 PM
#94
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
A couple of points about the Pan Am aquisition. Not one single person involved in the integration (management and ALPA) are still on the property. Ask what Pan Am did for its own, ie allowing Professional engineers to downbid to the 727 in order that they go to Delta. Ask about junior 727 copilots that had downgrade bids to FE prior to the aquisition, but were bumped out of those downgrade positions, thus having to stay in their seat and not allowed (by Pan Am's Alpa) to downgrade to be senior engineers (because the Prof FEs were allowed to). The whole thing was a mess, because it was not done in system seniorty but rather seat seniority and only a certain percentage were allowed to come over.
When a number of pilots at PanAm were left out in the cold, Delta interviewed and hired quite a few. Unfortunately, management said it was a take it or leave it. Read the book SkyGods and see what the general concensus was of the whole deal. Most of the guys I flew with were grateful the way things worked out. They were out of the mess that Ed Aker had created at PanAm. Ed Acker was PanAm's Leo Mullin.
When a number of pilots at PanAm were left out in the cold, Delta interviewed and hired quite a few. Unfortunately, management said it was a take it or leave it. Read the book SkyGods and see what the general concensus was of the whole deal. Most of the guys I flew with were grateful the way things worked out. They were out of the mess that Ed Aker had created at PanAm. Ed Acker was PanAm's Leo Mullin.
05-11-2008, 03:52 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Didn't those greedy jerks drain the Delta pilots assistance fund in the process? Funded directly by DAL pilots out of their own paychecks...
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 05-11-2008 at 03:59 AM.
05-11-2008, 07:16 AM
#96
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Excellent point. And it sure seemed to kill the conversation around here about how badly they were treated too... shack!
05-11-2008, 08:35 AM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
One other thing about the SLI was the way Pan Am's Professional Flight Engineers were treated:
When they came to Delta they were integrated in DAL's seniority list toward the bottom, at the seniority level of DAL's 727 S/O's. The most senior Pan Am PFE was a gentleman named Frank Nyalas (sp?). He was hired by Pan Am in 1945! That was during the GOBD (Good Old Boat Days).
At the time of the Pan Am purchase, DAL did not allow Captains to double down-bid and fly past age 60 as a Flight Engineer. (I don't believe Pan Am allowed it, either.)
DAL had previously been sued (by former Western Airlines pilots who had that right at Western) and won. However, they caved this time.
So, you have Pan Am Captains with a hire date at Pan Am of maybe 1967, and a new DAL seniority number of say, 800 double down-bidding to fly as a Flight Engineer on the L-1011 International. Meanwhile, Frank Nyalas hired by Pan Am over 20 years before that Pan Am Captain, can only hold the 727.
Not fair in my book.
When they came to Delta they were integrated in DAL's seniority list toward the bottom, at the seniority level of DAL's 727 S/O's. The most senior Pan Am PFE was a gentleman named Frank Nyalas (sp?). He was hired by Pan Am in 1945! That was during the GOBD (Good Old Boat Days).
At the time of the Pan Am purchase, DAL did not allow Captains to double down-bid and fly past age 60 as a Flight Engineer. (I don't believe Pan Am allowed it, either.)
DAL had previously been sued (by former Western Airlines pilots who had that right at Western) and won. However, they caved this time.
So, you have Pan Am Captains with a hire date at Pan Am of maybe 1967, and a new DAL seniority number of say, 800 double down-bidding to fly as a Flight Engineer on the L-1011 International. Meanwhile, Frank Nyalas hired by Pan Am over 20 years before that Pan Am Captain, can only hold the 727.
Not fair in my book.
05-11-2008, 11:11 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,635
The Professional Flight engineers were not ALPA and did not pay ALPA dues. The only seat they brought over were 727 FE seats. They were not allowed and could never bid a pilot seat at Pan Am and did not hold a pilot seniority number. There were however allowed at Delta to upgrade to pilot seats when the last of the 727's were retired if they could obtain a commercial ticket. Delta went out of their way with several to assist them in that so they could maintain employment.
05-11-2008, 01:08 PM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B767 First Officer
Posts: 160
This sure is a great history lesson. However, NONE of the people from the PAA aquisition are players now, either in management or in ALPA. It was a far different time, much has happened to our industry since then.
To draw any conclusions about how the NWA/DAL merger will pan out based on PAA or Western scenarios (or Northeast, National, Chicago Southern, Republic for that matter) is a complete waste of time.
But if you want to keep the angst-factor up, continue with this blast from the past. I'd be willing to bet that most of the people posting on this board did not experience the PAA or Western/DAL merger first-hand are are repeating third, fourth, and fifth-hand info....myself included.
To draw any conclusions about how the NWA/DAL merger will pan out based on PAA or Western scenarios (or Northeast, National, Chicago Southern, Republic for that matter) is a complete waste of time.
But if you want to keep the angst-factor up, continue with this blast from the past. I'd be willing to bet that most of the people posting on this board did not experience the PAA or Western/DAL merger first-hand are are repeating third, fourth, and fifth-hand info....myself included.
05-11-2008, 02:27 PM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
sailingfun,
To me, the fact that the PFE's were not ALPA is irrelevant, in the context of "fairness". Would it be "fair" if SWA bought Delta and stapled us to the bottom of their seniority list, after all, we aren't part of SWAPA and haven't paid them any dues money?
To me, the fact that the PFE's were not ALPA is irrelevant, in the context of "fairness". Would it be "fair" if SWA bought Delta and stapled us to the bottom of their seniority list, after all, we aren't part of SWAPA and haven't paid them any dues money?
