Delta-Northwest Merger in 'Jeopardy'?
I hate that hat.
02-21-2008, 08:27 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
[quote=finis72;324687]Let me get this right;NW pilots get pay raises to DL rates,access to new aircraft deliveries this year and DOH. DL pilots get leather jackets. I think that is DOA.[/quote
I agree. They can keep the leather jackets. I am one of the few at DL who have come to love the old horse blanket.
Just a few points I wanted to make about all I have read over the past few weeks:
About the retirements at NW, there will also be a mass exodus of DL pilots following NW retirees. To justify DOH because of the amount of retirements coming sooner at NW is not equitable. They are also coming to Delta just a few years later. Should I suffer loss of senority for 30 years also, (as a previous NW pilot put it), just because NW has more retirees going a little earlier.
IMHO, I think NW stands to gain a great deal more than the DL pilot. If in fact the NW negotiators are insisting on DOH and management indeed does want to have SLI resolved before an announcement is made, you may see a few sticks and carrots enter the senario from management.
And a relative senority integration is not a concession by the NW pilots. I've seen that written a few times on the boards and in a few articles. If anything DL pilots should want more due to absorbing the old -9's and the possible furloughs that could come with their shedding sooner rather than later. Everyone at Delta can remember how quick the 727, L-10, and MD-11 and old -200's left when the decision was made and I'm sure the NW -9's will leave even quicker.
Although there are risks to the junior pilots like myself, I think the long term growth opportunites may be better as a combined carrier. I look foward to seeing the negotiators work. Any SLI resembling DOH will be DOA.
DAWGS
I agree. They can keep the leather jackets. I am one of the few at DL who have come to love the old horse blanket.
Just a few points I wanted to make about all I have read over the past few weeks:
About the retirements at NW, there will also be a mass exodus of DL pilots following NW retirees. To justify DOH because of the amount of retirements coming sooner at NW is not equitable. They are also coming to Delta just a few years later. Should I suffer loss of senority for 30 years also, (as a previous NW pilot put it), just because NW has more retirees going a little earlier.
IMHO, I think NW stands to gain a great deal more than the DL pilot. If in fact the NW negotiators are insisting on DOH and management indeed does want to have SLI resolved before an announcement is made, you may see a few sticks and carrots enter the senario from management.
And a relative senority integration is not a concession by the NW pilots. I've seen that written a few times on the boards and in a few articles. If anything DL pilots should want more due to absorbing the old -9's and the possible furloughs that could come with their shedding sooner rather than later. Everyone at Delta can remember how quick the 727, L-10, and MD-11 and old -200's left when the decision was made and I'm sure the NW -9's will leave even quicker.
Although there are risks to the junior pilots like myself, I think the long term growth opportunites may be better as a combined carrier. I look foward to seeing the negotiators work. Any SLI resembling DOH will be DOA.
DAWGS
02-21-2008, 09:52 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
[QUOTE=DAWGS;324771]
that's why you ratio and put fences up, for a while.
how important do delta guys think the retirements would be if the industry slowed?
I'm sure the nwa guys feel the same way about the merger as delta. If it isn't good for them they wouldn't want it either. by the way who came looking for who...
DOA, you do realise that stands for Delta Orient Airlines
Let me get this right;NW pilots get pay raises to DL rates,access to new aircraft deliveries this year and DOH. DL pilots get leather jackets. I think that is DOA.[/quote
I agree. They can keep the leather jackets. I am one of the few at DL who have come to love the old horse blanket.
Just a few points I wanted to make about all I have read over the past few weeks:
About the retirements at NW, there will also be a mass exodus of DL pilots following NW retirees. To justify DOH because of the amount of retirements coming sooner at NW is not equitable. They are also coming to Delta just a few years later. Should I suffer loss of senority for 30 years also, (as a previous NW pilot put it), just because NW has more retirees going a little earlier.
IMHO, I think NW stands to gain a great deal more than the DL pilot. If in fact the NW negotiators are insisting on DOH and management indeed does want to have SLI resolved before an announcement is made, you may see a few sticks and carrots enter the senario from management.
And a relative senority integration is not a concession by the NW pilots. I've seen that written a few times on the boards and in a few articles. If anything DL pilots should want more due to absorbing the old -9's and the possible furloughs that could come with their shedding sooner rather than later. Everyone at Delta can remember how quick the 727, L-10, and MD-11 and old -200's left when the decision was made and I'm sure the NW -9's will leave even quicker.
Although there are risks to the junior pilots like myself, I think the long term growth opportunites may be better as a combined carrier. I look foward to seeing the negotiators work. Any SLI resembling DOH will be DOA.
DAWGS
I agree. They can keep the leather jackets. I am one of the few at DL who have come to love the old horse blanket.
Just a few points I wanted to make about all I have read over the past few weeks:
About the retirements at NW, there will also be a mass exodus of DL pilots following NW retirees. To justify DOH because of the amount of retirements coming sooner at NW is not equitable. They are also coming to Delta just a few years later. Should I suffer loss of senority for 30 years also, (as a previous NW pilot put it), just because NW has more retirees going a little earlier.
IMHO, I think NW stands to gain a great deal more than the DL pilot. If in fact the NW negotiators are insisting on DOH and management indeed does want to have SLI resolved before an announcement is made, you may see a few sticks and carrots enter the senario from management.
And a relative senority integration is not a concession by the NW pilots. I've seen that written a few times on the boards and in a few articles. If anything DL pilots should want more due to absorbing the old -9's and the possible furloughs that could come with their shedding sooner rather than later. Everyone at Delta can remember how quick the 727, L-10, and MD-11 and old -200's left when the decision was made and I'm sure the NW -9's will leave even quicker.
Although there are risks to the junior pilots like myself, I think the long term growth opportunites may be better as a combined carrier. I look foward to seeing the negotiators work. Any SLI resembling DOH will be DOA.
DAWGS
how important do delta guys think the retirements would be if the industry slowed?
I'm sure the nwa guys feel the same way about the merger as delta. If it isn't good for them they wouldn't want it either. by the way who came looking for who...
DOA, you do realise that stands for Delta Orient Airlines
02-21-2008, 10:34 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 320B
Posts: 278
First, let me apologize - this reply comes across as harsh and that isn't the intent. But I think there are additional considerations.
After 10 years the Delta pilots will be retiring in LARGER numbers than NWA and you want to effectively staple DAL guys then bring the fences down in time to cash in on their retirements.
Who's flying the 72 RJ's NWA has coming to replace much of the DC-9 flying? Those jobs are leaving the property if I'm not mistaken.
Outsourcing, returning to normal staffing and growth are each factors which impact senority progression as much as the NWA retirement numbers. Delta's hiring numbers were revised up to 500 this year. That will mean nearly 1,000 pilots since 02/07 with nearly no retirements - with a large number going straight to the heavies.
So lets see, 1,000 now for growth, or 1,000 maybe if capacity doesn't shrink, over 10 years....
How about a ratio integration by seat & pay? ALPA mergers in the past have been pay and equipment type based. That would be "fair" too by past practice.
Thank God, I think this merger is going to get pulled off the table. Keep your Northwest, your Northwest. I'm not worried about Cabotage - I think we can outperform an airline with expenses in Euros.
After 10 years the Delta pilots will be retiring in LARGER numbers than NWA and you want to effectively staple DAL guys then bring the fences down in time to cash in on their retirements.
Who's flying the 72 RJ's NWA has coming to replace much of the DC-9 flying? Those jobs are leaving the property if I'm not mistaken.
Outsourcing, returning to normal staffing and growth are each factors which impact senority progression as much as the NWA retirement numbers. Delta's hiring numbers were revised up to 500 this year. That will mean nearly 1,000 pilots since 02/07 with nearly no retirements - with a large number going straight to the heavies.
So lets see, 1,000 now for growth, or 1,000 maybe if capacity doesn't shrink, over 10 years....
How about a ratio integration by seat & pay? ALPA mergers in the past have been pay and equipment type based. That would be "fair" too by past practice.
Thank God, I think this merger is going to get pulled off the table. Keep your Northwest, your Northwest. I'm not worried about Cabotage - I think we can outperform an airline with expenses in Euros.
First off I will be surprised, but not shocked if this merger goes off the table. To much has been going on in the background for a few years. You have the fact that both companies went into bankruptcy on the same day, admitted to discussions back then of a merger, Pinacle now doing flying for both Northwest and Delta, Air France and KLM merging, and last but not least Richard Anderson coming in to be the CEO.
Also your Executive VP just came out yesterday and said that the merger would make DAL a "Global Airline" and thats what the market place demands.
As far as placing people on the senority list by pay and equipment I doubt it will happen. Yes you have new hires going to the right seat of the ER in New York but you also have 2000 hires sitting on the -88. So do you punish your guys for bidding lifestyle over paycheck?
For me personally I guys I am expecting to lose some senority, how much is the question. I guess one thing I would not vote for is any deal that places anyone on either list hired prior to Sept 11 placed behind anyone hired in 2007.
Someone else already said it. If management and the BOD wants the merger to happen it will happen. Watch over the next few days for the carrot and stick method of management to occur.
Lets just hope that if this happens that we all have jobs and it leads to the international growth that management says it will.
02-21-2008, 10:53 AM
#77
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
As far as placing people on the senority list by pay and equipment I doubt it will happen. Yes you have new hires going to the right seat of the ER in New York but you also have 2000 hires sitting on the -88. So do you punish your guys for bidding lifestyle over paycheck?
No one gives a crud about the 2007 hires, but for the guy who chased down a Delta job because he wanted 767ER flying it is a tough break to be told "you're going to Detroit on a DC-9," after all, that is not the job he signed up for. At the same time, a guy on the DC-9 hired in early 2007 could hold a good block on a 767ER in New York - $58 v/s $81 per hour for starters - one heck of a windfall. The career whipsaw at the bottom end is really wild - any ideas on how we fix that?
I think we will all have jobs and there will be growth at both airlines. I just hope that you keep your job and I keep my job. No forced trading, no displacements.
02-21-2008, 11:32 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Folks on other boards have played with the concept of a scenario where everyone bid the most senior equipment they could hold - then doing a equipment ratio. That would answer your concern about folks who bid QOL.
No one gives a crud about the 2007 hires, but for the guy who chased down a Delta job because he wanted 767ER flying it is a tough break to be told "you're going to Detroit on a DC-9," after all, that is not the job he signed up for. At the same time, a guy on the DC-9 hired in early 2007 could hold a good block on a 767ER in New York - $58 v/s $81 per hour for starters - one heck of a windfall. The career whipsaw at the bottom end is really wild - any ideas on how we fix that?
I think we will all have jobs and there will be growth at both airlines. I just hope that you keep your job and I keep my job. No forced trading, no displacements.
No one gives a crud about the 2007 hires, but for the guy who chased down a Delta job because he wanted 767ER flying it is a tough break to be told "you're going to Detroit on a DC-9," after all, that is not the job he signed up for. At the same time, a guy on the DC-9 hired in early 2007 could hold a good block on a 767ER in New York - $58 v/s $81 per hour for starters - one heck of a windfall. The career whipsaw at the bottom end is really wild - any ideas on how we fix that?
I think we will all have jobs and there will be growth at both airlines. I just hope that you keep your job and I keep my job. No forced trading, no displacements.
02-21-2008, 01:22 PM
#79
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 320A
Posts: 77
First off I will be surprised, but not shocked if this merger goes off the table. To much has been going on in the background for a few years. You have the fact that both companies went into bankruptcy on the same day, admitted to discussions back then of a merger, Pinacle now doing flying for both Northwest and Delta, Air France and KLM merging, and last but not least Richard Anderson coming in to be the CEO.
Also your Executive VP just came out yesterday and said that the merger would make DAL a "Global Airline" and thats what the market place demands.
As far as placing people on the senority list by pay and equipment I doubt it will happen. Yes you have new hires going to the right seat of the ER in New York but you also have 2000 hires sitting on the -88. So do you punish your guys for bidding lifestyle over paycheck?
For me personally I guys I am expecting to lose some senority, how much is the question. I guess one thing I would not vote for is any deal that places anyone on either list hired prior to Sept 11 placed behind anyone hired in 2007.
Someone else already said it. If management and the BOD wants the merger to happen it will happen. Watch over the next few days for the carrot and stick method of management to occur.
Lets just hope that if this happens that we all have jobs and it leads to the international growth that management says it will.
Also your Executive VP just came out yesterday and said that the merger would make DAL a "Global Airline" and thats what the market place demands.
As far as placing people on the senority list by pay and equipment I doubt it will happen. Yes you have new hires going to the right seat of the ER in New York but you also have 2000 hires sitting on the -88. So do you punish your guys for bidding lifestyle over paycheck?
For me personally I guys I am expecting to lose some senority, how much is the question. I guess one thing I would not vote for is any deal that places anyone on either list hired prior to Sept 11 placed behind anyone hired in 2007.
Someone else already said it. If management and the BOD wants the merger to happen it will happen. Watch over the next few days for the carrot and stick method of management to occur.
Lets just hope that if this happens that we all have jobs and it leads to the international growth that management says it will.
Well said.
I think that all of the wild unsubstantiated rumors that we have been hearing are mostly nonsense. IF the BODs at DL/NW want this to happen they will have to be patient, and may have to sweeten the deal a little more. The reps doing the negotiating for both pilot groups went into this looking for a win-win, not a staple job. This does not have to be a zero-sum game. If done correctly, the combined airline could provide a great career for the junior pilots at both companies.
If and when an agreement is reached, then we can decide if it's acceptable. If not, then either the deal falls apart or we go to arbitration, and I don't think anyone really wants arbitration. The posts on the "other" pilot forum have gotten way out of hand: Grown men are behaving like snot-nosed kids with a keen sense of entitlement...
02-21-2008, 01:48 PM
#80
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
I for one just want to see a relatively fair deal for everyone. This definitely should not be one sided whomever that side is. Lets not try and get worked up about some bs newspaper article and wait for the MEC to release some real info.
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